the behaviour of most men

That’s why it’s better/healthier to have a realistic view of men as a class. It’s not as shocking/foundation rocking/reality questioning when things like this happen.

I see exactly where you are coming from, my world has been rocked by a very close friend finding out that her DH of 20 years had been having an affair for 18 months.

So far so normal but this man is not a womaniser has been a supportive loving and attentive father and husband.

They were the couple everyone said appeared to be living ‘the dream’.

He lied schemed and gas lit her for over a year. The children who he adored have been devastated.

I , and many of their friends, have been shocked how someone can can change so much and were they always like that? To be so duplicitous and lie so easily.

My faith in my own instincts has been ground to dust. While other friends hope she meets ‘someone nice’, I hope she grows strong in her own self that she never needs anyone else.

I cant say what? Like you with your ex judgements are formed by experiences and thankfully having a close relationship with all my children I dont have a narrow lens and am aware of failings that everyone has. And I know from my experiences that woman can be just as cruel and vile as men.

It's not unreasonable to feel fed up both from personal experience and the news that's around us.

I think it's unreasonable and unhelpful to put it down entirely or even mostly to being male, much like it's unreasonable and unhelpful to put down age for the reason those born before 1964 are significantly more likely to commit fraud and other financial crimes or DUIs and alcohol-related public order crimes. There is more to it.

Obviously, no one should be in any kind of relationship they don't want, and I get why some women just don't want to anymore and see the value of just focusing on women. I do think societally, building better relationships between groups rather than what it feels like to me this constant push to push people apart by demographics would do a world of good. Part of good relationships is being able to pull someone up on things and accept being pulled up on it, and I don't think socially we have that.

A third of men have a criminal record by age 50.

In a data analysis of men born in 1953, where over half of that third have a single offence before the age of 21 and the vast majority of the offences were summary offences for things like drug possession, common assault against other men, minor property damage, and breach of the peace.

Yes, young men commit significantly more crimes, but let's not twist that into the types of behaviour most people complain about when it comes to men. It's no where close to a third of men who are responsible for sexual and other serious violence from our current understanding. Of course, those types of violence are not the only reason why so many women are fed up with so many men.

There is the argument that those who have the power to do will do more horrendous things - I don't think men are alone in this, but are more likely to have the power to do so. There is also the issue that human nature means our picture is unclear.

We have the issue that when women are arrested for violent crimes - even significant ones - it's more likely to end in a release with no further action. There are several reasons for that - one is the social view around women's violence not being as serious. Much as we have many unreporting of crimes of men against women because so many see them go free or feel the stress of it isn't worth the likely outcome, there is under reporting for women's crimes. I've been one of them - I have the records from my violent mother's arrests where even child endangerment got dropped through pleaing to a lesser crime - my life nearly ending was apparently worth a few hundred in a fine - so when I was violently attacked by women as adult and left for dead, I didn't report it - I didn't even know their names to do so - and much as I hear from others regarding men, it felt too risky for likely nothing as they had far, far more social power than I did. We'll likely never have an entirely clear picture, but IME and from the data I've seen, having the power to get away with it influences men and women alike, and the minority of both who are cruel and violent will use whatever power they have to their advantage when they can. I think finding a cultural way to pull people up on that younger could help, just as the young men in the cohort who committed a crime young and were punished never did so again.

@notevensurprised YANBU to feel that way. I think facing the reality of male behaviour can be very healthy, especially if it inspires you to refocus your energy on yourself and on supporting other women. As you'll likely see from many replies here, our culture often conditions women to centre their lives around men, minimise the prevalence of male violence, and rush to defend men's honour and deflect blame to women whenever toxic male behaviour is discussed. Breaking free from that conditioning can be a good thing.

Nor mine.

My abusive mother was the first person to hurt me, followed by my sister who for some god knows what reason, thought I was mother's golden child. Mother abused both of us, but my sister always blamed me for the abuse and treated me so badly that I have cut her out of my life.

I loved my father with all my heart (he died 10 years ago) and I am lucky to be married to a loyal and loving husband.

Despite my experience, I don't think all women are evil, abusive bitches. I realise some people - of both sexes - can be wicked, but most are not.

I have recently read that men have approximately 70% more energy than women. It might explain something.
And yes, I am of the same opinion as OP about men. No use to us after having children, if woman can support herself financially. Why suffer their cheating, financial manipulation, wanting to control everything, constant badgering for sex, even their farting, when you could live in peace be herself and enjoy life?
When couple retire, he happily immerses himself in hobbies, yet, she still has to cook, clean and organise their lives, while husband HELPS HER!
Yes, I am too of the opinion that all men are disappointing.

Where did OP say she hates them? Might’ve missed it.

That is a lot of people to hate.
For my own experience I have had good and bad. My DH is lovely, intelligent, gentle and kind. My Dad was a good man. Nobody had a bad word to say about him.
I have met women who I have disliked, just for balance, who have been in positions of power. Politically, in senior places in organisations. Who I have held little respect for. Who seem self serving and ugly in many ways.
And women who have not gone to work who I have not thought highly of too.

You might not go looking but if you’re quoting numbers about how many of the other school mums are married to bad men, that’s three you mentioned. What about all the others who are happily married to good men?

I feel respected, loved and cherished in my relationship and I know I have a good man. He’s not masking anything and I know he is as kind and good as he shows me he is.

That’s all I can judge him on.

There are bad people out there - both male and female but to generalise like you have is ridiculous.

@notevensurprised people generally have incredibly poor pattern recognition and are almost welded to internal belief systems so no amount of credible evidence penetrates. It is typically about survival as living day to day in such an unsafe state would be pretty terrifying.

There is insurmountable evidence supporting your assertions but it is not possible to assimilate at the individual level.

I think if some of these men are chosen friends rather than family you might need to learn how to watch for red flags and be more selective. Not all men are like this. As a child I witnessed some of the worse of male.behaviours growing up and as a result am easily triggered by characteristics I associate with those men. I tend to avoid being friends with very macho, cocky, leary, highly opinionated men. I call them Peacocks, they seem to be the sort many women including some of my friends are attracted to, I find them very off-putting.

I don’t think that’s true I don’t think men turn a blind eye to men who are crazy cruel or dangerous, it’s usually men capturing or prosecuting for example.

they are no more turning a blind eye than women are.

The people who hold power in our society are far disproportionately men. Physical, financial, at all levels of government, in business and socially.
If we only have a problem with a small minority of awful men, why have the vast majority of good men who hold the power, not dealt with the bad men?
The majority of men might not be directly cruel, lazy, dangerous etc, but they are turn a blind eye and enabling the ones that are. Otherwise we wouldn't be having the conversations at all.
Society is always divided with those who hold power on one side and those who hold less power on the other. It's the power imbalance that prevents unity, not discussing it.

They support the fact men commit most violent crimes yes, but they're a very long way from proving that most or all men are cheating, abusive or selfish.

A third of men admit to having abused an intimate partner.
I think it was 1 in 6 admitted to be sexually attracted to children.
30% admitted they would rape a woman if they were guaranteed no consequences to themselves.

Here's a box of chocolates, I've shoved a third of them up my arse and put them back but the rest are fine. You're gonna just put them in the bin aren't you.

And that's the ones that said "yes, I am a violent horrible person." I know my ex would never ever admit that what he did to me was abuse or rape. Not even to himself.

Yes I think the vast majority of men suck. They're not all paedophiles, rapists, abusers, murderers. But thats the bottom of the barrel. What percentage of them are actually wholesome, good people. We call a man a good dad because he takes his own kids to the park, like it's somehow above and beyond what's expected of him.

I know one man that cares more about his family than himself, that is driven and capable of achieving great things against the odds without being told and carried by a woman. One that is calm in conflict, patient, selfless and that is my DH. I love my brothers, I do, they're not violent, but I know one is explosive in arguments with his partner and both are like teenage boys in mens bodies, they take no responsibility for their lives or their families and are just carried through by their partners or parents. It's a shame, they're not nasty people, but I don't feel like men grow up the way women do and take responsibility.

My dad is nearly 60 and still acts like a jack the lad with no responsibilities, he has no savings, masses of debt because he spurts money on cool shit. Has no interest in his grandkids. Won't make another commitment at all to his girlfriend of god knows how many years. He's still an 18 year old lad.
My ex was a 5 year old with no ability to control his own emotions, he threw a tantrum because I ran out baby a bath and he hadn't had a bath in a week because I hadn't ran it. He's the same age as my dad.

They don't grow up, they just become angry and bitter that women stop looking after them like children.

Not all. I know one good one. But far far too many.

I was reading or watching something where a man was saying that his ex wife divorced him because he didn't pull his weight. But then he met a woman that have been brutally abused by her ex, and she just appreciated that he didn't rape or punch her, so she didn't mind doing an the housework and cooking because he was better than her ex. I think that's what we do. We've been abused or seen such heights of abuse even just in the media and think "well this guy's isn't a rapist or murderer, what a good man!" And the men all benefit from these horrible men because it makes them look better.

My DH is wonderful, but has suffered masses of abuse in his early life.

Statistics tend to back these feelings up though.

Im sure there are some nice mem out there, you have been really unlucky its probably 50/50 with decent Vs moron but the same probably goes for women. Hoping you meet a nice kind man 💜

It’s not about men being inherently awful/evil . I honestly believe that real change can only happen if the bar is raised higher and we stop expecting/being content with the bare minimum , rather than the “at least he doesn’t…” narrative and making excuses.

The thing that gives me pause is that every person who becomes disillusioned with a group feels their conclusion is evidence-based.

People who distrust men, women, immigrants, boomers, millennials, landlords or tenants can all produce a long list of personal experiences to justify it. That doesn't necessarily mean the conclusion is true.

Hi @notevensurprised
i must say i can understand where you're coming from. It sounds like youve had a lot of tough personal experiences and on top of that our news cycles are dominated by Trump Putin Xi Netanyahu Ayotollahs making decisions about the world and (even wars in certain cases) that are affecting us daily.

Add to that the rise in hatred to women online and of course there are constant stories on shooters, murders, rapes and DV where the perpetrators are all men.

In spite of all this, i do believe there are some good men around. Some of my friends have lovely husbands and my brother is great. Ive also worked with a few wonderful men in the past. But there are slim pickings :0(

i would like to see a world with more women in charge.

It does read a bit that you are expecting men to not behave like men! They are like that. I still love loads of them.
Men (in the UK in this age) are required to live in a society that expects them to quell their status seeking, sex seeking, testosterone driven urges. They mostly comply but I think a bit of realism is needed. We’re all just mammals driven by illogical urges. Appreciate men for what they’re good at and protect yourself as much as you can.

It’s an endless struggle for women to manage living amongst the men around them. I am so grateful to live in a time and place where they are controlled enough that I can choose to live without one.

So I do agree with you but don’t think you will ever change men. We just have to stay vigilant. Past societies often just accepted that men would have mistresses and that didn’t affect their social status as decent and good people. If they can get extra marital sex with no effect on their domestic life they generally will.
Im not sorry I married as I needed that partnership to raise my children. Yes I gave more than he did. He was a selfish, lazy cheat and I’m single now. My own amazing young adult daughters are extremely wary and don’t date much and don’t expect to marry or have children. That’s the reality of women not putting up with men’s shit.

If you start a thread about them , I’ll happily discuss that too. “Women do it too” is not an excuse , or makes the behaviours more palatable.

I have to agree but there are some good men, just few and far in between.

There are women 'guilty' of some of your examples too.