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AIBU?

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Original poster

To observe that we don't have free will.

142 replies

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 17:57

Most of us feel that we have free will.

But when we are faced with making any choice, we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances.

And so the decision that we make is the only one that our particular mind would make, in that particular situation.

We have to live our lives as though we have free will.

But once you see that life is like the groove in a record, merit and blame become equal imposters.

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:57

Raciney · 29/05/2026 18:56

Why are you being snippy? Simulation theory is the theory were sims. Like in a game. People were discussing it. Chill out

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I'm sorry if that was snippy.

I didn't mean it to be so!

OP posts:
ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 18:57

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:52

Yes, what you describe are some typical paths for someone growing up among crime and poverty.

But you were not typical, your choices led you along a different, happier way.

This is so.

But the choices that you made were not 'free'.

From the moment that you were born, you were experiencing the world, and imagining the world, and that created your character.

And that character, in any of the situations of your history, would always have made the choices that you made.

You are an individual who chooses, but not freely.

(There are, after all, only 13 particles and four forces)

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But I was experiencing the same world as the other people around me who died in prison in their 20s, or suffered domestic violence, or became addicts. I was a “character’ created by my environment and heredity, just like anyone else, surely?

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:57

There are, after all, only 13 particles and four forces

So? There's only 26 letters in the alphabet, but there's an infinite number of books that can be written with it.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:56

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 18:50

How about when committees make decisions; the decision will have had lots of minds contributing to what is decided on.
'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.'

So the committee refines something to be done that none of the individuals comprising the group would have come up with alone.

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I'm not sure how that links to what I'm suggesting.

Organisms interact.

Eh?

OP posts:
Raciney · 29/05/2026 18:56

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:19

I don't know what simulation theory is.

And I don't know any top physicists either.

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Why are you being snippy? Simulation theory is the theory were sims. Like in a game. People were discussing it. Chill out

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:54

Pandorea · 29/05/2026 18:48

Isn’t it a meaningless question? You can never get outside of us so you can never be sure if there is free will or not. You can live as if there is or you can live as if there is not and maybe it’s only meaningful to consider which you think is better.

It's far from meaningless because, without free will, praise and blame are equally invalid.

And life is better for that.

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:52

ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 18:46

They really aren’t. I’m from a poor, deprived background, lots of crime and relatives doing time for theft and violence. Both parents, from very deprived, dysfunctional backgrounds, only semi-literate and suspicious of education, can’t help with homework, and encourage me to leave my sink estate school as soon as I legally can. My path was laid out for me — a ‘good’ result would have been leave school, don’t get involved in drugs or crime, get a job in a shop and have children young with someone who didn’t beat me, or not much. The ‘bad’ was far worse. Quite a few of my schoolmates died young.

And yet I didn’t do either. I stayed on at school and put myself through four degrees on a combination of grants and scholarships. I have a professional career, have lived all over the world, and currently live between a pair of retired surgeons and a pair of conservation architects.

Nothing in me, my school education, the adults around me, the examples I had ever gave me the ‘equipment’ for any of this. If I were part of a ‘deterministic chain’, this wouldn’t be my life now.

Show quote history

Yes, what you describe are some typical paths for someone growing up among crime and poverty.

But you were not typical, your choices led you along a different, happier way.

This is so.

But the choices that you made were not 'free'.

From the moment that you were born, you were experiencing the world, and imagining the world, and that created your character.

And that character, in any of the situations of your history, would always have made the choices that you made.

You are an individual who chooses, but not freely.

(There are, after all, only 13 particles and four forces)

OP posts:
TheOliveFinch · 29/05/2026 18:52

@MesonBoson I think we have a lot less free will than many people think as our decisions are influenced by many things including adverse life events , biology , genetics, epigenetics. Robert Sapolsky is very interesting to listen to on this , his position is that we have no free will at all and I can’t quite get behind that idea but he has written a book on the subject called Determined which is well worth a look

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 18:50

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:44

Very true. There might be all sorts of factors in our decision making. Advice, intuition, experience.

But at the moment we make our choices we are using a pre-existing mind on pre-existing circumstances.

Show quote history

How about when committees make decisions; the decision will have had lots of minds contributing to what is decided on.
'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.'

So the committee refines something to be done that none of the individuals comprising the group would have come up with alone.

Pandorea · 29/05/2026 18:48

Isn’t it a meaningless question? You can never get outside of us so you can never be sure if there is free will or not. You can live as if there is or you can live as if there is not and maybe it’s only meaningful to consider which you think is better.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:46

youalright · 29/05/2026 18:43

I do kind of agree with you.

I'm so pleased.

Thank you for telling me so.

It's very liberating to be rid of free will.

Life is thing that is happening to me, and I'm lucky to have such a sweet one.

But I don't merit it

It's just happening.

OP posts:
ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 18:46

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:16

A person may the proximate cause of their actions, but they are part of a much longer deterministic chain.

Show quote history

They really aren’t. I’m from a poor, deprived background, lots of crime and relatives doing time for theft and violence. Both parents, from very deprived, dysfunctional backgrounds, only semi-literate and suspicious of education, can’t help with homework, and encourage me to leave my sink estate school as soon as I legally can. My path was laid out for me — a ‘good’ result would have been leave school, don’t get involved in drugs or crime, get a job in a shop and have children young with someone who didn’t beat me, or not much. The ‘bad’ was far worse. Quite a few of my schoolmates died young.

And yet I didn’t do either. I stayed on at school and put myself through four degrees on a combination of grants and scholarships. I have a professional career, have lived all over the world, and currently live between a pair of retired surgeons and a pair of conservation architects.

Nothing in me, my school education, the adults around me, the examples I had ever gave me the ‘equipment’ for any of this. If I were part of a ‘deterministic chain’, this wouldn’t be my life now.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:44

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 18:40

We might decide to ask someone else's advice before making our decision, and then it might be different from the one we would have made otherwise.
We may also ask AI. As a result a lot of other 'decision - making equipment' and multiple people's circumstances could help us choose what to do.
I think how someone behaves is a lot more organic and nuanced that what you are suggesting.

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Very true. There might be all sorts of factors in our decision making. Advice, intuition, experience.

But at the moment we make our choices we are using a pre-existing mind on pre-existing circumstances.

OP posts:
youalright · 29/05/2026 18:43

I do kind of agree with you.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:41

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:37

If nobody has free will, why do people change their minds. If there is no possible way to break out of the inevitable path they are on, how can they change?

That particular change was already on their path.

Our wishes and desires change as time goes by; as we learn and experience.

But the algorithm is just clicking along.

We make our choices, be not freely.

OP posts:
Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 18:40

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:31

That's very true, but where is the freedom?

Every choice we make is the one that we personally would make in those circumstances.

We just have a personal algorithm rolling in side of us.

We have will. But not freedom.

Show quote history

We might decide to ask someone else's advice before making our decision, and then it might be different from the one we would have made otherwise.
We may also ask AI. As a result a lot of other 'decision - making equipment' and multiple people's circumstances could help us choose what to do.
I think how someone behaves is a lot more organic and nuanced that what you are suggesting.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:38

There's already been a suggestion that I'm drunk!

I don't drink and I rarely do hard drugs.

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ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:37

If nobody has free will, why do people change their minds. If there is no possible way to break out of the inevitable path they are on, how can they change?

whitefluffydog · 29/05/2026 18:37

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:35

I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to engage with discussion of imaginary friends.

Though, if you are a believer, you might ponder on Martin Luther and the concept of Grace

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Free will is a Biblical concept. You therefore are not well educated to discuss it if you think it originated somewhere else

good try though, I needed some laugh today , many people enlarge their brains on here by pretending and cannot prove it, once given a teeny tiny test

SandwichSuperstar · 29/05/2026 18:37

So your path was always to indulge in hard drugs on a Friday night?

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:35

whitefluffydog · 29/05/2026 18:31

The free will is a Bible definition: you only get the free will to chose how you live but you are not free in which consequences you get, therefore you have free will to believe in God, do good and end up in Heaven because if you chose free will to chose evil you end up in hell

I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to engage with discussion of imaginary friends.

Though, if you are a believer, you might ponder on Martin Luther and the concept of Grace

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:34

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:30

Your reasoning is just a cop-out for poor decisions. It's a way of saying "it wasn't my fault" even if everyone was telling you that you're making a crap choice.

Nobody ever made a mistake on purpose.

Poor decisions lead to poor consequences.

I'm not saying 'not their fault'; I'm saying that fault is an illusion.

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:31

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 18:28

But your 'decision - making equipment' and your circumstances are both unique to you, so it's you personally who is making choices based on them.

That's very true, but where is the freedom?

Every choice we make is the one that we personally would make in those circumstances.

We just have a personal algorithm rolling in side of us.

We have will. But not freedom.

OP posts:
whitefluffydog · 29/05/2026 18:31

The free will is a Bible definition: you only get the free will to chose how you live but you are not free in which consequences you get, therefore you have free will to believe in God, do good and end up in Heaven because if you chose free will to chose evil you end up in hell

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:30

Your reasoning is just a cop-out for poor decisions. It's a way of saying "it wasn't my fault" even if everyone was telling you that you're making a crap choice.