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Original poster

To observe that we don't have free will.

142 replies

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 17:57

Most of us feel that we have free will.

But when we are faced with making any choice, we are using pre-existing decision-making equipment on pre-existing circumstances.

And so the decision that we make is the only one that our particular mind would make, in that particular situation.

We have to live our lives as though we have free will.

But once you see that life is like the groove in a record, merit and blame become equal imposters.

OP posts:
Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 19:29

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:24

Strangely, I'm not offering a moral perspective.

I'm saying that morality is invalid.

Although it will always be a huge part of how humans interact.

I live my life as though I have free will, bit knowing that I do not gives me a huge liberation.

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Why would you want to live your life as if you have free will, if it's something you don't believe in?
Surely most people try to live according to what they do believe, not what they don't?

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 19:28

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:24

Strangely, I'm not offering a moral perspective.

I'm saying that morality is invalid.

Although it will always be a huge part of how humans interact.

I live my life as though I have free will, bit knowing that I do not gives me a huge liberation.

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Liberation from what? Liberation to do what? How is it any different to just behaving without your belief system?

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:27

CamillaMcCauley · 29/05/2026 19:24

No, it’s because circular logic is a thought-terminating cliche. There’s no way to disprove it OR prove it because it’s entirely circular. You can believe it if you like, but that doesn’t make it true.

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Now you're being grumpy!

OP posts:
CamillaMcCauley · 29/05/2026 19:26

What is the liberation that your belief brings? You still seem to believe in, for example, punishment for crimes, even if you believe those being punished were unable to choose their actions differently. So how does your belief make any difference?

CamillaMcCauley · 29/05/2026 19:24

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:19

If it's impossible to disprove, maybe that's because it's true.

Of course for all of us there are ongoing chains of decisions, actions, consequences, decisions...

But within that we're not bringing any magical freedom.

It's not that this realisation appeals to me; rather, to me, it's simply true.

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No, it’s because circular logic is a thought-terminating cliche. There’s no way to disprove it OR prove it because it’s entirely circular. You can believe it if you like, but that doesn’t make it true.

Jellycatspyjamas · 29/05/2026 19:24

wheredidtheteago · 29/05/2026 18:13

Patiently waiting for mine to put in the motherlode cheat 🙄

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Me too, but I fear my operator might drop me in a swimming pool with no stairs instead.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:24

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 19:20

No praise, no punishment due to anyone then, since none of us could behave in any way other than how we do.

I think there's something very dystopian about this theory, and bad for mental health, if you consider the implications any more than superficially.

Strangely, I'm not offering a moral perspective.

I'm saying that morality is invalid.

Although it will always be a huge part of how humans interact.

I live my life as though I have free will, bit knowing that I do not gives me a huge liberation.

OP posts:
SomeGarlic · 29/05/2026 19:21

@Raciney · Today @ 18:12. This was a beautiful reply.

SomeGarlic · 29/05/2026 19:20

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 18:44

Very true. There might be all sorts of factors in our decision making. Advice, intuition, experience.

But at the moment we make our choices we are using a pre-existing mind on pre-existing circumstances.

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Your premise has made me unreasonably angry. I think it's because I, like millions of others, have done loads of therapy - the purpose of which is to identify our 'algorithms', which therapy calls schemas, and undertake to change the patterns and assumptions underlying our decisions.

I actually believe everyone should do it. Discussions like this strengthen that opinion.

Myoldbear · 29/05/2026 19:20

No praise, no punishment due to anyone then, since none of us could behave in any way other than how we do.

I think there's something very dystopian about this theory, and bad for mental health, if you consider the implications any more than superficially.

fabstraction · 29/05/2026 19:19

I do believe our DNA and upbringing have a bearing on who we are, but I also believe in free will. And yes, merit and blame are both still earned and deserved, like it or not.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:19

CamillaMcCauley · 29/05/2026 19:14

This is one of those theories that seems impossible to disprove because it has a circular internal logic. “You did that because you were always going to do that given your life circumstances, nature and nurture.”

But there’s no way to know in advance what the thing that you’re going to do it. It can only be applied retrospectively.

OP you seem to like this because it eliminates praise or blame (though not applied consequences, which doesn’t entirely follow?). Why does that concept appeal to you?

If it's impossible to disprove, maybe that's because it's true.

Of course for all of us there are ongoing chains of decisions, actions, consequences, decisions...

But within that we're not bringing any magical freedom.

It's not that this realisation appeals to me; rather, to me, it's simply true.

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:14

Raciney · 29/05/2026 19:12

It’s a rather pointless and circular theory though. It’s impossible to argue against it as you’d just say ‘but that was the next step you were always going to take.’

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I can see that my position is frustrating, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Maybe it's impossible to argue against, because it's correct.

OP posts:
CamillaMcCauley · 29/05/2026 19:14

This is one of those theories that seems impossible to disprove because it has a circular internal logic. “You did that because you were always going to do that given your life circumstances, nature and nurture.”

But there’s no way to know in advance what the thing that you’re going to do it. It can only be applied retrospectively.

OP you seem to like this because it eliminates praise or blame (though not applied consequences, which doesn’t entirely follow?). Why does that concept appeal to you?

Raciney · 29/05/2026 19:12

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:11

I can see why you say that, but I'm not.

To me fate implies an outside force.

Whereas I just think that one thing follows another, and there is only one path.

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It’s a rather pointless and circular theory though. It’s impossible to argue against it as you’d just say ‘but that was the next step you were always going to take.’

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:11

AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:05

You are speaking of fate.

I can see why you say that, but I'm not.

To me fate implies an outside force.

Whereas I just think that one thing follows another, and there is only one path.

OP posts:
Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:09

ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 19:07

But my nurture was the same as that of my friends who died, on drugs, in jail. There’s nothing exceptional about my ‘nature’, either. I’m utterly ordinary.

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Ordinary but individual.

But actually, you're not ordinary, and we know that because you didn't follow the ordinary path.

OP posts:
AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:07

Oh... I take that back...

Violence breeds violence

Abused go on to abuse

No, I don't believe that either.

ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 19:07

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:04

Yes, exactly, your nature and your nurture made you the woman that you are.

And the woman that you are made choices that led you to a better life.

But what I'm suggesting is that we are always re-acting to circumstances.

We feel like we are ahead of the game, but actually we are slightly behind it.

Surfing on the breaking wave of time.

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But my nurture was the same as that of my friends who died, on drugs, in jail. There’s nothing exceptional about my ‘nature’, either. I’m utterly ordinary.

AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:05

You are speaking of fate.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:04

ShepherdsBlanket · 29/05/2026 18:57

But I was experiencing the same world as the other people around me who died in prison in their 20s, or suffered domestic violence, or became addicts. I was a “character’ created by my environment and heredity, just like anyone else, surely?

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Yes, exactly, your nature and your nurture made you the woman that you are.

And the woman that you are made choices that led you to a better life.

But what I'm suggesting is that we are always re-acting to circumstances.

We feel like we are ahead of the game, but actually we are slightly behind it.

Surfing on the breaking wave of time.

OP posts:
AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:03

MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:01

I meant to suggest that the way the universe works is deterministic.

That one thing inevitably leads to the next

Like a machine.

(Unless there are random jumps, but they don't imply 'freedom' either)

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In that respect - nonsense.

There is still no free will though.

AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:02

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:57

There are, after all, only 13 particles and four forces

So? There's only 26 letters in the alphabet, but there's an infinite number of books that can be written with it.

Have you seen the Hungarian alphabet? That's just one example because I have.

Original poster
MesonBoson · 29/05/2026 19:01

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:57

There are, after all, only 13 particles and four forces

So? There's only 26 letters in the alphabet, but there's an infinite number of books that can be written with it.

I meant to suggest that the way the universe works is deterministic.

That one thing inevitably leads to the next

Like a machine.

(Unless there are random jumps, but they don't imply 'freedom' either)

OP posts:
AlgaeDreams · 29/05/2026 19:00

ColdAsAWitches · 29/05/2026 18:03

Do you want to let everyone out of prison then? If nobody in there was responsible for their choices, then they shouldn't be in there, should they?

The same government that controls the laws controls all of us to an extent.

OP is posting because she is having to source an internet connection.

There is no free will in life.