To observe that we don't have free will.

What if science proved tomorrow that none of us have free will though? Would that really change much for the most of us? It wouldn't make me completely disregard my life up until this point so I'm not sure how important free will actually is in that hypothetical scenario.

Surely free will is the very concept that it does matter?

If you believe in free will then you believe you have control over your decisions and actions, and that they do matter?

Even if you don't have free will does it matter?

I completely agree with you OP. HNRTT but I’ve been entirely convinced by Robert Sapolsky.

Causal impact not casual 😆

I think, if you believe in a hard deterministic position (where events are essentially unfolding as they always would, like a video tape running), then the very question 'does it matter?' is kind of out of sync/ a category error...hard determinism would say that the chain of events unfolding would have always lead to you asking that question, and that experience might have some casual impact on subsequent experiences for you (and for me, and anyone reading) but that is irrespective of the idea of free will, which it asserts does not exist. So, no, 'it does not matter' in the sense that it is just another one of gazillion experiences you were always going to have and was a predetermined experience for you, with a predetermined impact (or lack of it) on whatever comes next.

Obviously only if you believe in hard determinism. But if you believe in free will but believe some things are so complex that free will looks indistinguishable from determinism then you have answered your own question in the same way, I guess, so no it doesn't matter to you. But for some who believe free will is still influential even when it is indistinguishable from determinism then it possibly still matters to them - that is the experience they have. But then of course they were always going to feel that way 🤪

People have will, but the term "free" tacked on the front can be rather misleading. Unless they're randomly throwing dice, people will make decisions for specific reasons, in line with various specific criteria.

So yes, if the choices people make are meaningful, then they are deterministic, constrained by all the factors people bring into consideration, including what suits their personal nature.

But nonetheless we do need to make many such choices, and the human brain is well suited to making complex decisions that are quite unlike any other determining factors at work in nature, which is how we've managed to completely change our world to suit ourselves. Human will is itself powerfully deterministic.

The term "free will" is best used to describe choices people make without being forced or overly pressured by other people, or circumstances entirely beyond their control.

So as a unified organism you hedge your bets really.

I think I got to this thread too late and posted my reply after only reading a few of your posts so it’s a daft question . 🙈

I was asking if you think they have free will, as their thought process is unpredictable, unconcerned and unencumbered by societal rules, previous experiences etc. .

Possibly true - but if something's so complex that it can't be distinguished from free will (now or ever), is there a difference and does it matter?

I agree with you.Special relativity alone makes it impossible, in that all events in space time are equal, so there is no such time as past or future: in a sense, the entire history of the universe already exists and always has.

Sabine Hossenfelder has done a few videos about it:

That's what makes Dementia terrifying

Edit.. is it a loss of self and free will or a stark reminder that we have neither?

What about people who lack capacity? Due to intoxication (alcohol, drugs etc), mental health illness (schizophrenia, psychosis etc.) or mental/cognitive impairment?

It's tied to free will as your sense of self or consciousness allows you to even understand what the concept of "free will" is.

That said your memories and my own are half made up and our brain fires electrical signals and responds before we even "think" so it's a very messy subject.

Please don't think I'm arguing with you as I fully believe you're entitled to see things however you want but it is a fact that science can't explain what makes us "consciousness" and have a "self".

From a hard deterministic position they would all be predictable, but we obviously (presently and probably always) lack capacity to do this.

I think we have free will as in the ability to make choices from a set of available options. We just don't have infinite free will.

If we had no free will then the decisions for each person would be predictable.

We don't need to understand anything to contemplate it after all philosophers have been asking this question for thousands of years if not longer but if we did understand what consciousness was then it would certainly help with the answer if there is one..

Well if you were in Scotland, youll likely be arrested as they are an endangered species 🤣🤣🤣

Agree. Whether you’re deterministic or libertarian, the outcomes are basically the same.