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Original poster

to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia? Part 2

213 replies

haleey · 27/05/2026 17:00

Continuing from previous thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5534178-to-think-it-is-acceptable-to-smack-someone-if-they-touch-your-body-even-if-they-have-dementia

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and one man touched my privates while smiling at me. I know they are ill and confused, but honestly I think people act as though women are supposed to just tolerate it because “they can’t help it”.

Part of this for me is that I have been assaulted before, so my reflex when someone suddenly touches me unexpectedly is to hit out before I even properly think. It is an automatic panic response.

Recently one resident suddenly grabbed me and I instinctively smacked his hand away. One of the staff immediately told me off and said “he can’t help it”. I understand that dementia affects behaviour and judgement, but I found it upsetting that the focus instantly became about him rather than acknowledging that I had just been touched without consent and panicked.

I’m not talking about beating vulnerable elderly people or deliberately hurting confused residents. But I also don’t think women should be expected to quietly accept unwanted touching because the person is elderly or cognitively impaired.

to think it is acceptable to smack someone if they touch your body, even if they have dementia? | Mumsnet

I visit my grandad in a care home regularly and sometimes male residents will touch women unexpectedly. I’ve had my waist touched, boobs grabbed and o...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5534178-to-think-it-is-acceptable-to-smack-someone-if-they-touch-your-body-even-if-they-have-dementia

OP posts:
Original poster
haleey · 28/05/2026 08:05

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 08:04

Christ so you just want to admit you enjoy hitting disabled adults and children?

It’s interesting that you’ve not responded to my posts breaking down exactly why it is not sexual assault, but you’re responding to everything else. Says it all to be honest.

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so you just want to admit you enjoy hitting disabled adults and children?

Yes, You are so clever. That is exactly what I want to admit. 🙄

OP posts:
Original poster
haleey · 28/05/2026 08:04

Zapx · 28/05/2026 05:37

I have, very sadly, a lot of experience of people suffering with dementia. If someone finds themselves routinely hitting people with dementia, because of the sufferers behaviour, I would have to suggest you change your behaviour so it doesn’t happen.

Meeting your father in his room? Meeting in a quieter place in the care home? I’m sure there are solutions here that don’t result in disabled people being hit.

Maybe try reading the thread. It is not my father.

OP posts:
frumpydump · 28/05/2026 08:04

haleey · 28/05/2026 08:02

I would too.

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Christ so you just want to admit you enjoy hitting disabled adults and children?

It’s interesting that you’ve not responded to my posts breaking down exactly why it is not sexual assault, but you’re responding to everything else. Says it all to be honest.

Original poster
haleey · 28/05/2026 08:03

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 08:01

Why did you need a second thread? Do you really want to be told you’re wrong for another 1000 posts?

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Are you MNHQ? Do I need to justify to you which threads I start?

Do you really want to be told you’re wrong for another 1000 posts?

Maybe try reading the last thread. It helps.

OP posts:
frumpydump · 28/05/2026 08:03

Notmyreality · 28/05/2026 08:01

Legally they may not be prosecuted for it but as far as the victim is concerned it is still very much sexual assault. Made all the worse by the fact the perpetrator can’t be punished for it so there is no recourse.

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It’s not sexual assault. That’s a fact.

If, as a fully capable adult you cannot distinguish that while this is an unpleasant thing to experience this is not sexual assault and is because of an evil disease that is causing this behaviour, I don’t know what to tell you.

Original poster
haleey · 28/05/2026 08:02

Notmyreality · 28/05/2026 07:18

As above, if the disabled child touches me inappropriately I would also swat their hand away.

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I would too.

OP posts:
Notmyreality · 28/05/2026 08:01

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:10

It’s not sexual assault when the person doesn’t have capacity

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Legally they may not be prosecuted for it but as far as the victim is concerned it is still very much sexual assault. Made all the worse by the fact the perpetrator can’t be punished for it so there is no recourse.

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 08:01

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Why did you need a second thread? Do you really want to be told you’re wrong for another 1000 posts?

haleey · 28/05/2026 08:00

This reply has been deleted

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haleey · 28/05/2026 08:00

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Notmyreality · 28/05/2026 07:59

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frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:58

haleey · 28/05/2026 07:57

Also add that you have to avoid it as well if it has happened once and change your behaviour.

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It’s been explained why it’s not sexual assault. If you want to believe it is, that’s your prerogative but you won’t find many sympathetic people.

Original poster
haleey · 28/05/2026 07:57

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 06:58

Well it’s an interesting discussion when some seem to have the view of either
-you should expect to sexually assaulted in some locations
-if you are, it’s your fault
-if you are, you shouldn’t react and there’s nothing you should do to defend yourself?

Show quote history

Also add that you have to avoid it as well if it has happened once and change your behaviour.

OP posts:
frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:47

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:44

Ah, ok you’re someone who puts being sexually assaulted into “unpleasant” and “potentially upsetting”…
while legally there would likely be no consequences, I think it quite disappointing you describe a sexual assault as so, as if the victim’s response and feelings and the affect on them should be altered.

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No, I have been assaulted myself.

This is not sexual assault, as I’ve explained to you. Legally, it cannot be as both the MR and AR need to be present. As per the Sexual Offences Act 2003, this is not sexual assault.

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:44

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:34

Irrelevant. The act is not legally sexual assault.

Is it unpleasant? Yes. Is it upsetting? Potentially. But I also think that people should be able to understand that the intention behind it isn’t to assault them and so they should be a little more understanding. Hitting someone isn’t appropriate, taking their hand and redirecting it while saying no is probably better for all parties.

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Ah, ok you’re someone who puts being sexually assaulted into “unpleasant” and “potentially upsetting”…
while legally there would likely be no consequences, I think it quite disappointing you describe a sexual assault as so, as if the victim’s response and feelings and the affect on them should be altered.

wandawaves · 28/05/2026 07:42

This reply has been deleted

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frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:34

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:32

But the act still happened.

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Irrelevant. The act is not legally sexual assault.

Is it unpleasant? Yes. Is it upsetting? Potentially. But I also think that people should be able to understand that the intention behind it isn’t to assault them and so they should be a little more understanding. Hitting someone isn’t appropriate, taking their hand and redirecting it while saying no is probably better for all parties.

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:32

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:20

Yes it is legally correct. Sexual assault is not a strict liability offence therefore the prosecution must prove that the “offender” intended to commit the crime.

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But the act still happened.

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:31

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:17

Is that legally correct? So if your child was sexually assaulted by someone who lacked capacity, you’d say “no you weren’t”? You can absolutely be sexually assaulted by someone who lacks capacity.
From both a personal, human standpoint and a legal perspective, the impact of an unwanted, non-consensual sexual act remains exactly the same. However, how the situation is handled legally or institutionally depends heavily on why the person lacks capacity.
So while there may be no criminal repercussions or mens Reaus-guilty intent , the actus rea -guilty act still exists.

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Firstly, it’s mens rea and actus reus.

Yes there may well be a “guilty act” in the touching, but the prosecution would have to prove the mens rea. The mens Rea for sexual assault in England and wales would be that the defendant intentionally touches the victim, knowing the touching is sexual, and either knowing they don’t have consent or not reasonably believing that they have consent.

Under Section 74 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, consent is defined as a person agreeing by choice, having the freedom and capacity to make that choice.

Thus, they would fail the legislative test and would not have committed an offence.

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:20

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:17

Is that legally correct? So if your child was sexually assaulted by someone who lacked capacity, you’d say “no you weren’t”? You can absolutely be sexually assaulted by someone who lacks capacity.
From both a personal, human standpoint and a legal perspective, the impact of an unwanted, non-consensual sexual act remains exactly the same. However, how the situation is handled legally or institutionally depends heavily on why the person lacks capacity.
So while there may be no criminal repercussions or mens Reaus-guilty intent , the actus rea -guilty act still exists.

Edited
Show quote history

Yes it is legally correct. Sexual assault is not a strict liability offence therefore the prosecution must prove that the “offender” intended to commit the crime.

Notmyreality · 28/05/2026 07:18

Zapx · 28/05/2026 06:34

Would you hit a disabled child? If not, why not?

(Do bear in mind here that the OP is knowingly going into a care home where it is very obviously going to be full of disabled people)

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As above, if the disabled child touches me inappropriately I would also swat their hand away.

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 07:17

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:10

It’s not sexual assault when the person doesn’t have capacity

Show quote history

Is that legally correct? So if your child was sexually assaulted by someone who lacked capacity, you’d say “no you weren’t”? You can absolutely be sexually assaulted by someone who lacks capacity.
From both a personal, human standpoint and a legal perspective, the impact of an unwanted, non-consensual sexual act remains exactly the same. However, how the situation is handled legally or institutionally depends heavily on why the person lacks capacity.
So while there may be no criminal repercussions or mens Reaus-guilty intent , the actus rea -guilty act still exists.

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:17

Zapx · 28/05/2026 07:14

The OP has gone in there voluntarily though. The patient with dementia quite probably is not there voluntarily. Therefore surely it’s up to the OP to try to mitigate the circumstances - meeting in a separate room, meeting in her Dad’s room and shutting the door, asking a member of staff to accompany her etc.

I could maybe understand hitting a dementia patient once if you were somehow unaware of the condition. More than once though? Sounds like they need protecting from the OP?

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It’s also quite impossible for someone with no capacity to sexually assault someone else.

Zapx · 28/05/2026 07:14

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 06:58

Well it’s an interesting discussion when some seem to have the view of either
-you should expect to sexually assaulted in some locations
-if you are, it’s your fault
-if you are, you shouldn’t react and there’s nothing you should do to defend yourself?

Show quote history

The OP has gone in there voluntarily though. The patient with dementia quite probably is not there voluntarily. Therefore surely it’s up to the OP to try to mitigate the circumstances - meeting in a separate room, meeting in her Dad’s room and shutting the door, asking a member of staff to accompany her etc.

I could maybe understand hitting a dementia patient once if you were somehow unaware of the condition. More than once though? Sounds like they need protecting from the OP?

frumpydump · 28/05/2026 07:10

PoppinjayPolly · 28/05/2026 06:58

Well it’s an interesting discussion when some seem to have the view of either
-you should expect to sexually assaulted in some locations
-if you are, it’s your fault
-if you are, you shouldn’t react and there’s nothing you should do to defend yourself?

Show quote history

It’s not sexual assault when the person doesn’t have capacity