AIBU to just let my DD crack on?

Your job as parent of tween/teen is to get them ready for adulthood. Your dd might have a PT job and be deciding whether to have sex in five years, driving in six years, moving out to uni in 7 or 8 years. It’s not long!

You no longer get to impose your idea of what’s important on her. She has her own ideas. You need to guide her, coax her along, whilst letting her feel like she can make her own choices whilst setting some boundaries. eg bedroom should be cleaned and tidied once a week; NO wet towels in the room - if the rule is broken there’s a consequence. Teach her how to do her own laundry; if she doesn’t have clean clothes that is her problem.

You won’t get it right all the time and you’ll be constantly recalibrating.

Just add within reason to each of your do as you likes. If you nag her about all of those things I can see you both getting frazzled. Pick your battles, her room her mess, the rest of the house pick up your stuff.

It sounds to me like you need to let the little things go op. If she gets a regular set of demands and arguments from you she will rebel against it. Why does it matter what she wears or when she empties her bin? Close the door on her bedroom if it bothers you.

Your list contains a mixture of things that are very important - going to school - and much less important (when she empties her bathroom bin).

By this age many children start fighting for control and if you give them no control at all over anything they’ll fight very very hard.

start relaxing on the little things.

I totally agree. This is exactly how I feel, and I’m nearly 50. My family is very conservative and make their disdain for my ‘bohemian ways’ well known, so as an adult I moved across the ocean to live a life where no one is cringing of mortification because I’m not into a Kate Middleton look and a “normal” job. It’s sad my parents don’t like me, but they do love me and I love them too. If they would have accepted me as I am (I’m not a shitshow or a criminal, I just don’t care ‘what the neighbours think’) I’d have stayed in my home country.

She sounds like a completely typical teenager and I think it’s very unwise to send her to see a psychologist again, and you need to step back a bit - it sounds like you’re smothering her with your expectations.

Of course she’s going to make poor choices, she’s 11, your job as a parent is to set clear boundaries, give her space to grow and help her when her poor choices impact her. In early teens that’s often going to mean conflict and picking your battles.

While she’s going through enormous cognitive, psychological and physical changes, as parents we’re also going through significant changes. Realising we can’t manage every part of their environment or their behaviour and adjusting our parenting moving towards a more equal relationship is hard but leaving her to “crack on” is unfair when she can’t see possible long term consequences of immature decision making processes. Can you explore where she can have more autonomy without life long harm, the battles you can let go and the mistakes she can make without the outcome being too harmful?

You can't just let her do whatever she wants, but teens are very much like toddlers i.e. you need to pick your battles.

I would relax around what she wears, how often she showers, how tidy her room is, how often the bin is emptied, where she leaves her stuff.

I'd have minimal rules re. screen time, homework, piano, clubs, family outings.

As long as there’s no vermin please ignore the state of her bedroom. Everyone should be entitled a private retreat, and if she wants to be a messy person it’s her business so just tell her to keep the door shut. Yes ‘your house your rules’ but she can hardly move out at 12 can she, so it feels unfair that she can’t keep her room as she likes and deal with the consequences herself (broken items, lost things, etc) The other issues may be valid but a tween’s tip of a room is a nothingburger imho.

It sounds like you are struggling with her developing autonomy. Her younger sister is a breeze I imagine because you still control her world.

It is sad that you are pathologising normal developmental behaviour. Children are meant to test boundaries.

The advice I found useful was to parent the child you have not the child you want.

It's hard isn't!! I have given my thoughts below. Personally I wouldn't give her a list or anything written - she could easily go wild with it! Feedback on your specifics:
Wear what you want - whilst not writing it down for her, I would let her wear what she wants and not say a think. I think there are bigger battles.
Use your computer when you want - I would allow this to happen, however no data access via wifi or phone between 10pm and 7am (say).
Wash when you want - for now I just wouldn't chase it up, but I wouldn't grant express permission for this.
Leave your stuff where you want - has to be in her room, not all over the house. But her room is her own, she can do whatever she wants with stuff in it.
Tidy your room when you want - I'd let this go, she can do her room whenever she feels like it
Empty your bathrooom bin when you want - I'd also just let her do whatever on this I think (just to reduce the battles)
Study when you want, manage your school stuff however you want - I did this with mine they now acknowledge that they wish they'd done more! But at the time it was just too much of a battle to get them to stop gaming.
Go to sports when you want, give up piano when you want, opt out of family outings when you want - I'd agree to all that, up to her.
Eat whatever/ whenever you want - I would provide 3 meals a day, very limited snacks available. I wouldn't mess about with preparing food at different times for her, because it could really suck your time up!

Sounds like normal teen desire for independence. In the kindest way, maybe you could have some therapy to help with your urges to control her?

Nothing to add that's helpful but solidarity. It is exhaustingxx

At a quick guess up until now she has been able to get what she wants. The problem is now, if you give in, the consequences could be catastrophic. The fact she you're actually contemplating letting her have her own way is probably says it all. Why is she going to a psychologist when she doesn't need to? You need to be even stronger and ensure boundaries are kept.

A lot of your frustration resonates with me as the parent of an 11yo boy. That "do whatever you want list" at the end is very familiar and I've had most of those exact thoughts when feeling especially pissed off😁

It's so tiring having to constantly remind and cajole. I feel like I spend half my life trying to get my kid to do the most basic things. I try to get him to assume responsibility by him writing lists, putting reminders in his wall calendar etc but it all gets forgotten.

Is your daughter someone who feels and shows resistance when being directly told what to do? Would a different approach be helpful? For example, a limited choice about when to wash - "Are you going to shower in the evening or in the morning?" and not allowing certain activities until her responsibilities are taken care of?

It's so tiring having to monitor and orchestrate it all though.

I also wonder if a slight reframe of the situation might be appropriate? Meaning trying not to see it as a "problem" with her, but rather an issue with the dynamic that the two of you have? The way each of you behaves or relates towards the other has an effect, rather than her behaviour being the only problematic factor.

This was exactly what I thought. Pick a few absolute non-negotiable (with her input?) and drop tidy bedroom etc.

I have had to remember with my DS (now 14 - has also had difficulties and at times required a lot of parenting) that, even though I think he needs reminding of things, it can easily come across to him that I'm constantly asking him to do things and that I don't think he's capable of remembering - anyone would find that annoying! I think when they hit secondary they do need to take on some control over their lives. A couple of school sanctions on late homework etc isn't going to do much harm and may save you endless battles.

List: Wear what you want, use your computer when you want, wash when you want, leave your stuff where you want, tidy your room when you want, empty your bathrooom bin when you want, study when you want, manage your school stuff however you want, go to sports when you want, give up piano when you want, opt out of family outings when you want, eat whatever/ whenever you want, manage your hygiene how you want

I didn't give a shit about most of those things, and I now have 2 daughters, 15 and 21, both lovely people, very successful high-fliers, who now do all of those things out of choice.
Hygiene - younger DD didn't wash enough for a few months, but she soon learned when the other kids at school started commenting.
Sports/music: these are supposed to be leisure activities, if she doesn't enjoy them why on earth would you force her to keep doing them? At age 11 my DD2 did virtually nothing, now age 15, she's completely self-taught on the piano, can easily play grade 8 pieces, plays guitar, sings, and has bought herself various other instruments out of her own money. I never once forced her to a single music lesson, and she point blank refused piano lessons. I was forced to do "hobbies" and grew up with a very distorted view of "hobbies", as in, I genuinely thought they were things to be endured, not enjoyed.
Both my DDs (and me) have always eaten whatever we want, I've never restricted anything, we're all slim. For the vast majority of children, their body will crave savoury food if they've eaten too much sweet food or whatever.
Tidying - don't really care what their room looks like, they soon learn that a tidy room is easier. My rules have been that they don't eat in their bedrooms at all, so avoiding food being left and going mouldy in there, and they let me in to clean, if I decide I want to clean (I like cleaning).
Computer - don't care - as long as they get school stuff done, they can use it as much as they like, DD2 is a big gamer. I'm a techy, my job involves writing AI code, I love computers and what they can do, what's so bad about them? It's a good career and I earn plenty, for sitting on my arse at home writing code, 100% flexibility.

The main thing I was super strict on, was school - they had to go to school.

Sorry but this is parenting! You cannot just opt out of it. 2, 8 and 11 are normal milestones to have challenging or new boundary pushing behaviour. You seem so eager to have her diagnosed with a problem so you wash your hands off her to the world you have an excuse. I think you need to visit someone to talk to about coping with motherhood. Your daughter sounds absolutely normal, this is standard puberty it's your attitude that is the problem here not her.

I agree with all this.

I did wonder about the younger dd “who is a breeze”? Does your elder dd feel that she is second best?

Eleven year old girls can be awful. I recommend gin for you. Between the body growing, the brain going through massive development and school, basic manners can be in just the too hard basket. Emotions are enormous in size.

So, work out what you are prepared to be a little more relaxed about, what you are a lot relaxed about and what you deem essential. Pick your battles. Never give in to “but everyone else does it” without finding out from other parents the truth.

After all that, enforce your boundaries. Teenagers need strong boundaries. They need to know what’s not negotiable. Be strong and consistent and your dh needs to be on exactly the same page.

Lots of drives in the car are good. Kids talk better when they are not having to talk face to face. Plenty of food. Remember to get plenty of water into her. It’s really hard to recognise that you might be thirsty.

This stage of life will not last but it must be got through.

List:
Wear what you want
Re. school uniform, buy all the right stuff, then let the school handle it if she doesn't wear the right stuff in the correct manner
Re. going out shopping on a Saturday, or visiting relatives, as if dressed for the beach - yes, let it go. She will learn not to embarrass herself in time.

use your computer when you want
No, being online is like crack cocaine. You have to enforce screen-free time and provide other activities.

wash when you want
Yes, her friends will tell her if she stinks.

leave your stuff where you want
No, but not worth nagging about. Have a big box or trug in a corner downstairs and dump all her random stuff in there.

tidy your room when you want
Yes, it is her room. Shut the door if it starts to smell in there.

empty your bathroom bin when you want
What? She has her own dedicated bin in the bathroom?
Whoever is cleaning the bathroom should empty all the bins.
She should be on the rota for some housework tasks, not necessarily bathroom cleaning though.

study when you want
Yes. Let her teachers handle it if she fails to do her homework.
Fully support the teachers whenever she gets a detention.

manage your school stuff however you want
Yes. Let the teachers handle it if she doesn't have the correct stuff.

go to sports when you want
Yes, except if it is paid termly and she fails to attend regularly, just don't pay the next term and she loses her place. She can't be half-in-half-out.

give up piano when you want
Yes absolutely

opt out of family outings when you want
Only when childcare is not a problem. You can't leave her home alone, but if one parent is home, the other parent shouldn't force her to come out.

eat whatever/ whenever you want
Yes, but don't buy too much sugary junk, so her options are limited to what is in the house. Put her on a rota for preparing family meals - this is an important life skill she should be taught, and she gets to choose what to cook

manage your hygiene how you want
Yes, see above, friends will tell her when she stinks

So in summary, with the exception of screen time, stop nagging her or bossing her over her personal choices and start giving her real family responsibility on a housework rota and cooking rota.

I have a similar age DD and similar struggles. I think you need to drop some battles and focus on the essentials. For me it's school. We have dropped the piano (for same reason), and I don't care what she wears as long as it's not vulgar or unnecessarily revealing (no very short skirts etc). If it's ugly, I don't care. Her room isn't tidy, but she is not allowed to have food there.
And I don't care about her hygiene (to be fair, she is almost the other extreme on this). But if she didn't wash and stank, her peers would soon let her know. I think that's a 'safe' ball to drop.

Too much freedom? When exh had literally no boundaries for our 2 ds's they came and lived with me full time. They wanted parenting. Their own words at 12 and 14. .
Now 22 and 24....well adjusted adults.

I felt exactly like you when my now 13.5 yr old was 11/12. It was horrible, every day I ended up in tears. Same stable background, supported and loved by both parents. but the battles were incessant (I bore the brunt)

A year later and I got my normal lovely child back, I can only put it down to hormones.

I really hope it passes for you soon too. Just wanted to post to say you’re not alone.