Catholic guilt?

@TheignT it is all very well for you to say there were no need for mother and baby homes, but regardless of your opinion they existed and hundreds of thousands of mothers and babies passed through their doors, with very, very sadly & criminally many babies never leaving alive and their mother's being subject to horrific abuse. Many were put there by their parents, because the religious shame of their daughter being pregnant outside of marriage was so acute.

No need for the homes, Catholic or otherwise, if the girls parents loved and cared for their child and grandchild like my great grandparents did. Who should a frightened girl be able to rely on if not her parents.

No I'm saying if the school taught this as a way to frighten a child that is an issue. I was taught that the punishment in purgatory was we were denied the presence of God. Waiting for the time when we would be with God. There was always the condition that of course we don't actually know.

It was never taught as frightening. Like Jesus descending into hell to take the righteous to heaven. As our time would mean nothing in heaven maybe he took everyone who has ever lived or will ever live to heaven. Always taught with positivity and kindness. This was the late 50s and 60s.

So yes I think it is the school that was frightening children that was wrong.

@TheignT are you saying that the Catholic Church no longer believes in purgatory?

I think your issue is with your school.

Purgatory is another example of an invention by the RC church - it's not mentioned in the Bible.

I'd say to OP - if you are a believer, read the gospels and be aware that that's the only authority (such as it is) for Christianity. Try to ignore the other areas/constructs/creations/dogma which the official RC church instituted in the 4th century.

Nobody has been to purgatory because it doesn't exist. I'm just repeating what I was told in school.

I know this thread is specifically about RC guilt, so don't want to derail with a general discussion about God's existence.

But I have always wondered if my believing friends actually watch the news. One look at the news tells any thoughtful person that God cannot be good if in fact they exist at all.

I knew of a vicar who lost her daughter in a terrible disaster and lost her faith. Poor, poor woman - but had she really not thought through the random cruelty of existence until it happened to her???

Was on a packed train so didn’t read properly the bit about faith. Lack of real evidence still stands though.

I don’t know who wrote the bold bit but in a court of law their ‘evidence’ would be thrown out as nothing more than circumstantial at best. Also, if that is evidence why did the poster need to use the word faith? Evidence doesn’t need faith.

But you can't have it both ways. People who claim 'the wonders of nature' as proof of God's existence need to consider the horrible things which happen to people and animals all the time.

The wonders of nature are there for all of us to see. But it does not follow from that that a deity created them, nor that they are good.

Here's a scenario - you are a divine all-powerful being of some ilk and you are contemplating creating planet earth, and you have a brilliant idea: I know, I will make it so that every creature is in conflict with every other, for space and for food and - even better - I will make it so that all creatures live in fear of all others because they will eat each other! - tear each other to pieces! - great plan!

The world that has been created by whatever means (and we do not know that means for sure) is predicated on kill or be killed. A good plan? A kind plan? Evidence of a good god?

The truth is that the world is a harsh place. I sit here looking at my fabulous view of the hills and watching the small birds on the feeder - they are cute and a joy to watch. But their behaviour of flitting in and out, which looks so cute to me, is because they are terrified of the crows, magpies and other big birds around so they have to grab what they can while looking over their "shoulder" for something that might kill them of steal the food from them.

Honestly - if you had been that divine being, is this what you would have chosen?

Of course Catholic guilt is a thing or why would people have it or had to overcome it!

What does it matter if not all mother and baby homes were Catholic? The point is that many of those run by the Catholic Church oversaw the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of infants, not to mention instiutionalised cruelty towards pregnant mothers and the trafficking of live infants to parents who could pay (donate) to the Catholic Church. If it hadn't been for the religious moral judgement of unwed mothers in the first place, the hideous homes would not have needed to exist!

There is plenty of evidence that God exists to name a few examples: the cosmos, fine-tuning of the universe, origin of life, design in biology, the historical record of Jesus, people's personal experiences, morality, consciousness .... you need more faith to believe there is not a God than to believe there is one.

There is no objective evidence that God exists. It's only people's personal experience.

God cannot be both omniscient, omnipotent and good.

God could be all-powerful and amoral - considering the obscene suffering which goes on every minute of the day.

God could be good - but then God couldn't be all-powerful, or he/she/it would intervene to stop man's cruelty and the cruelty of nature and children dying of cancer, for example.

But you can't have it both ways. People who claim 'the wonders of nature' as proof of God's existence need to consider the horrible things which happen to people and animals all the time.

People who use contraception are also conducting the sex lives responsibly.

Completely detatched from reality.

Natural family planning (billings) is 99% effective when used properly, matching hormonal pill methods.

No form of contraception is fool proof, of course, because creating babies is what sex does.

When you think about it, its a strange thing to attempt, to interdict your bodies natural processes.

I appreciate the obvious convenience of the pill for women, but billings is useful not only in avoiding pregnancy but in getting pregnant when desired too.

One of the most highly researched methods of family planning that exists today. The method consistently shows success of over 99% in avoiding pregnancy and 65-78% in achieving pregnancy in sub fertile couples. In trials the WHO states it is a very, very effective method of family planning. But it is so much more than this, it is also an excellent tool for monitoring her reproductive health and most definitely “…knowledge of her body that every woman ought to have.” Dr. Evelyn Billings.

https://www.billingsmethodengland.org.uk/

Billings isnt unpopular because its ineffective, but for cultural reasons where a drunk woman might choose to shag some random in an alley outside a nightclub, in between mouthfuls of a bag of chips.

This kind of behaviour is why our society puts so much stock in artificial methods, its not due to necessity.

But, for women who conduct their sex life responsibly, Billings is a perfectly reasonable and effective choice.

My ex-husband was one of 12. When the doctor told his mother 12 in 12 years was enough and number13 was likely to kill he she was sterilised and her children went into care while she was in hospital, longer procedure in the 60s. Her husband left her and the children. He wasn't a Catholic, in fact he couldn't say anything bad enough about Catholics, he certainly disapproved of his son marrying me.

Gosh you seem to know it so well. Have you been to purgatory?

Do you think mother and baby homes were only run by the Catholic church? You'd be wrong, the one local to me in the 60/70s was Salvation Army. I always think the girls parents were mainly to blame. My great aunt was pregnant 100 years ago. Her parents gave her and the baby a home and support. Plenty of others could have done the same.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Everyone has a right to their own beliefs, but to deny that the catholic church has not caused misery and continues to do so is completely crazy. Sitting in the relatively safe bubble of the catholic church in an affluent country is fine - but failing to acknowledge the realities is unacceptable.

The burden of guilt carried by so many catholics is unnecessary and cruel, and emanates from the power hungry maloes who set this whole system up.

I do understand how hard it must be for people brought up in this faith, and frankly indoctrinated, to let go of any element of it - it is written through them like the town in a stick of Blackpool rock. But the claim that christianity is about kindness and compassion whilst also denying the appalling actions wrought in the name of the church is a huge disconnect.

If I were a catholic and desirous of remaining so I would feel it my duty to acknowledge these things and seek to make redress.

@BlueSherbet a friend of mine did a 3 month GP stint in a clinic in Ethopia which was run by an Indian order of Catholic nuns. Amazing place offering basic healthcare to a rural community. However, they would not permit the issue of contraceptives of any description within their clinic, regardless of the faith of either the prescribing doctor or the local woman. This was only a decade ago.

I still maintain that so many posters on here are misunderstanding or choosing to side step many of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. So many posters make references to broadly Christian beliefs and have a cherry picking approach to work around the bits of Catholicism that they don't want to abide by or agree with etc. I can't help but wonder how much you can overlook, not agree to, dismiss before you are no longer really a Catholic at all.

As Desmond TuTu said:

"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land"

Now, I'm sure you're able to google countries with virtually no Christians, or without much or any historical exposure to Christianity.

You're really not doing Catholicism any favours here.

I am the eldest of nine children. My parents couldn't afford anywhere near that number, but contraception was difficult to access, natural family planning is difficult if you're only semi-literate, and they were and are devout and believed what they were told by a celibate priesthood, that every sexual act should be open to conception. DH is the youngest of seven, and only the youngest because his mother had a catastrophic birth injury and was given a hysterectomy after his birth. His mother is the eldest of thirteen.

Meanwhile, a supposedly celibate clergy was engaging in systematic cover-ups of child sexual abuse among their own numbers. Pope Francis apologised for the 'crimes of the Catholic church' in Ireland in 2018. .

And leaving aside entirely my own country, the church's refusal to countenance the use of condoms has led to untold suffering in African countries because of the spread of AIDS.

I have Catholic friends who are well aware of these issues but prefer to remain within the church and agitate for reform. I have lesbian Catholic friends who met through church and manage to reconcile their marriage, which the church doesn't recognise, and bringing up their daughter as a Catholic, with the official Catholic position that while same-sex attraction is not in itself sinful, acting on it is a 'grave sin'. I don't pretend to understand their logic, but they have considered these things seriously and decided to stay.

But to pretend that Catholicism is unproblematic and not freighted with historical and actual horrors, is ridiculous.

South America ... catholic African nations .... all the millions who have already suffered. Or should we just forget them now? Write them off as collateral damage?

Catholic women do have agency and choices, but only after an unnecessary battle with their conscience.

Natural methods of contraception do not have the same efficacy and never have. Catholic women are required to run tgst risk.

Non catholics also have restraint ... not being Catholic does not mean that they are like dogs in the street and have no sense of responsibility. Their reasons for exercising that restraint are simply different. It is because they are decent people.

Catholic women might no longer be baby making drones in the rich world we inhabit, but even they have to make their choices based on a male dominated religion with random rules.

There are flaws in all ways of life. It is important to acknowledge the serious flaws in catholicism ... they have blighted lives and still do.