To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

And Christianity…

A beautiful Italian lady that works for me has married an Indian Muslim man and has adopted the hijab and abaya. Her husband didn’t make her, he doesn’t care one way or another.

She has chosen to do it and she is converting from Catholicism to Islam out of free choice as she has said that a lot of the religion resonates with her.

She is enjoying wearing the hijab/abaya and has loved not being subject to the male gaze.

In our team we’ve quizzed her a lot about this as it’s such a radical change for her but she is very happy. It’s not something I could see myself doing, but each to their own.

Niqab fairly often, but they often appear to be (possibly Saudi) tourists. Burqa very rarely but I definitely have seen them occasionally, especially in London.

@inkognitha

British society comes first, British values come first.

What does that society look like? What are those values you speak of?

I’m English, as is my entire family tree, but from reading your posts I’d guess that my values are wildly different to yours.

Quite a few in the city.

I can only hope they are wearing it through deliberate choice, not religious and cultural pressure, especially when the men and boys accompanying them are cool and comfortable in t shirts and shorts.

At the maternity clinic today I saw a woman wearing a niqab. In Scotland so not a common occurrence but it did make me feel kind of sad. She had her husband and her toddler there who obviously doesn’t like the mum wearing it (presumably she doesn’t inside the house) and kept trying to pull it away from her face. The dad’s response was just to hold the toddler away from the mum which just resulted in screaming for ages.

Every Saturday at the car boot there’s a couple of women in niqabs.
Tbh, I have no problem with a generalised ban on face coverings in public, but they need to be generalised. Niqabs are one thing, but it also needs to include face coverings at protests (if you have any courage in your convictionsa d you’re not thee to cause trouble, you shouldn’t be hiding) as well as balaclavas and pulled up snoods, which are the headgear of choice for snatch and grab phone thieves, young county lines e-bike riders and illegal motorbike riders in my city.

You sincerely made me laugh, you poor thing.

The Leftie bingo card (not too many holes to punch, it is a very limited repertoire) has almost been filled for today: Deflection, Tommy Robinson, Racism.

Fascism still missing but I am sure you will be able to fit that one in, you never care much about reality, knowledge, truth or tolerance, a bit of force teaming or spurious allegations is all you need usually, should be easy peasy for such high calibre thinkers like yourselves.

Basically a Niqab should not be allowed to be worn anywhere where a motorcycle helmet would not be allowed to be worn.

Judaism poses no threat to western society.
Hence the term Judeo-Christian

Coventry and Birmingham have plenty of people wearing full covering.

I've had female students living with me from the Middle East and they put on their covering (never face or eyes) to travel home. The find that it is better for them with Middle Eastern men staring at them if they don't and making them feel very uncomfortable. They don't wear full covering here in uk as they feel comfortable without - but have always kept hair covered and wrists and ankles

I agree. The idea that it’s an empowering choice that women make with absolutely no outside influence either culturally or from family traditions/expectations,
is just nonsense.
One of the saddest thing I ever saw was on a beach in Spain a few years ago. A family of four. Dad and kids were in shorts, bare chests, swimming and playing ball.
Mum was in full covering on a boiling hot day.
Just awful.

How is a Muslim who is born in Britain not part of society?

Is Judaism equally not a “foreign religion”?

Niqab: fairly often. I used to work with a couple of women who dressed this way (central London) and my daughter used to live in East London so when I visited her it was a common sight.

Burka: not very often at all. Occasionally seen in the street in London, but I have never known anyone personally.

I didn’t think Mumsnet would be your bag, Tommy.

Everyone in the UK, born here or not, with a passport or not should abide to this simple rule: British law comes first, British society comes first, British values come first.

Muslim religion is significant in the UK solely because of recent immigration. It is not an established British tradition.

Western civilisation has fought for centuries to get rid of the dominance of the Church and make it a personal matter of faith rather than a political system.

Accepting as equal a foreign religion who has largely not gone through the same evolution is taking us all back to dark times of obscurantism.

I m going back to work, have all a lovely time calling me names.

This can’t really apply to Muslims who were born here though.

It's completely different and you know it, and no amount of the sycophantic "its so beautiful" takes away from the reality which is that it is a tool of oppression

Your first para assumes that Muslims can't be British. There's a word for that.

I think it is very high time for the Muslim community and its leaders to answer this question: what do you put first, the civil laws and traditions of the UK, the state that has welcomed you, or the laws and traditions of your religion and native community?

As for the Hadiths, over time, many other religions decided to step back on certain practices or to put in the background some sacred texts that were not fitting their views anymore. Christian religion purged itself of a lot of not very nice stuff to become the tolerant, egalitarian open-minded faith it is today, it can be done.

Islam still cannot accept the predominance of the state over faith or religious freedom. This is why multiculturalism and integration stop working when Islam is involved.

Perhaps you ought to listen to the complaints about immigration then.

Increasingly often (North England)
I grew up in an area with loads of Muslims and never, ever saw a woman in a hijab, let alone a full Niquab. Older women ( grandmas) wore a headscarf over head and shoulders , often quite pretty ones.
Now, most girls are in hijab ( which often seems to be a fashion statement more than a modesty thing because they wear it with fake eyelashes)and I see Niquab probably a couple of times a week. I increasingly see burkinis at the swimming pool too.
It’s not a neutral item of clothing it’s a political statement and I don’t think we should normalise it in the uk. You cant participate in life with your face covered.
I worry though that if Niquab was banned those women would be forced to stay inside all the time.

I am surprised people see so many niqabs outside certain areas in the UK. I live in South London and work centrally and see a fair few women (including friends and colleagues) who wear hijabs. But I don't regularly see a lot of women wearing niqabs (to be clear the niqab is a head and face covering where only the eyes are visible.)

My general view on this stuff is men, including those in government, should not be telling women what to wear.

I live in a rural village in Ireland and there is one lady I meet regularly who wears a niqab, the only one in the village.
We say hi as we pass but I feel the covering is a barrier to any further interaction. I cant see her face, therefore cant read her facial expressions and dont know if she would like to engage further.

Surely it is very oppressive and restrictive, how can they eat or drink in public, take part in sports, drive safely? I have seen her wear it on hot summer days, it must be roasting underneath it.

However for me it is the barrier it poses to social integration because you cant see their expressions.

The Hijab is totally different. I think they’re really elegant. They are copying their mother and want to look grown up, no different to 10 year olds doing their hair and dressing like their mother.
I just saw my neighbour leaving for school in a beautiful hijab cream with small stones, she’s 10. Some 10 year old girls in gym gear or grown up clothing? She was delighted in her fancy hijab.