To ask how many times you have seen anyone wearing a niqab (full face veil revealing eyes) or burqa (full face veil with mesh cover for eyes)?

I agree, but I intensely dislike the hypocrisy that calls out extremist Islam and has nothing at all to say about extreme Orthodox Judaism and the kind of Christianity that is currently so powerful in the US and Russia. All religions have their extremes.

And none of that takes away from the issue that you can't distinguish women who cover up to an extreme degree because of their own intrinsic beliefs and those who are coerced into it. Personally as a fairly hardcore atheist I don't get that kind of intense expression of faith, but I'm opposed to stifling anyone's freedom of religion.

My area was mostly Sikh immigration in the midC20th and I noticed that the older ladies wore saris & salwar kameez daily but the next generations mostly wore 'western' clothes unless there was some occasion to dress up, same with all other ex-South Asian groups. None of my Muslim friends wore hijab.
It's become noticeably more conservative in Muslim communities now and if you track the restrictions on women in places like Iran & Afghanistan in the same time frame, that change is concerning.
Incidentally, it was always the scuttlebutt that ( in many cultures) boys were treated differently ( better) to girls, I would hate to think we are regressing. I hear from some of my teacher friends that disrespect for women in authority is a concern.

Btw burkinis look like a dangerous liability if you actually try to swim in them.

Sorry to blow your tiny mind again, but I live with one 😆

My DP is Turkish. Turkey is the only Muslim country who went through secularisation (= the law of the state, human rights, sex equality and personal emancipation supersede religion).

Despite being a Muslim country, you won't see niqabs in Turkey. Most people there live their religion like we live ours, like a faith, a personal spirituality, not a political or social system that aspires to domination.

But since Erdogan came to power and the influx of refugees from Syria and Afghanistan, there's more pressure coming from the religious side again. He chose to move to the UK for his teenage daughter because he didn't want for her to be pressured into dressing modestly, religious conservatism etc. He wants for her to be free to live as she pleases.

So when he sees all these Western people, mostly women, ignorant of their own history, oblivious to their privilege, and ignorant of Islam, ready to sell women's and his daughter's freedom because they think that Islam is the same as Wahhabism (the very conservative, extremist, bellicose Saudi sect that only emerged in the late 19th century and has propagated all over the Muslim world because of oil money), he thinks you're dangerous idiots.

The moment you have more than insults, factoids hastily googled, or some true skin in the game, please, do come and share.

This isn’t true. The Quran only calls for “modest” clothing for both men and women, this literally means don’t walk around in hot pants and no shirt. For women it tends to be a case of wearing looser fitting clothing.

Also on the note of hijabs being “mandated” from puberty, the hijab is never mandated hence seeing plenty of Muslim women without them. It’s a choice. Some young girls choose to wear them because they want to copy mum or their sister.

As I said earlier in the thread, I was surprised to see young girls in a niqab last time I returned to Bradford where I grew up. I’ve never seen that before nor since.

I used to see a couple of women wearing burkas fairly regularly while living in Perth Australia about 15 odd years ago. I was in a very multicultural area. I am now in a regional WA town and its not common although there are plenty of women who wear hijabs.

It felt kind of sad because it is hard to interact with people when you can't see their face. I was a young mum and a bit lonely so would regularly chat to other mums at local shops or parks but when someone's face is covered you don't see a smile or any other cues to let you know if conversation is wanted. I felt like it must be very isolating.

What is worse? All the major faiths oppress women in their extreme manifestations. The face coverings are no worse than raising women to accept male headship in fundamentalist Christianity, no worse than ultra orthodox Judaism refusing females divorce. The problem is men wielding faith as a tool of oppression. The focus on Islam is a convenient distraction.

Many women opt to wear them and are not forced, nor feel oppressed. It makes them feel safer and more secure, away from the male gaze which I think most women can appreciate to be honest.

They also can and do eat perfectly fine, usually in a female only space or alone.

I see them all over - Oxford Street I assume it’s Arab tourists.

I live near High Wycombe and many women wear them. It's designed to be a symbol of oppression, there is no way women wearing them can participate in society - they must remain hidden and reliant on men. Boys then see their mother's wearing them and think it's normal.
You can't even eat properly wearing one.

I absolutely hate what they stand for and think they should have no place in our society.

Increasingly often (North England)
I grew up in an area with loads of Muslims and never, ever saw a woman in a hijab, let alone a full Niquab. Older women ( grandmas) wore a headscarf over head and shoulders , often quite pretty ones.
Now, most girls are in hijab ( which often seems to be a fashion statement more than a modesty thing because they wear it with fake eyelashes)and I see Niquab probably a couple of times a week. I increasingly see burkinis at the swimming pool too.
It’s not a neutral item of clothing it’s a political statement and I don’t think we should normalise it in the uk. You cant participate in life with your face covered.
I worry though that if Niquab was banned those women would be forced to stay inside all the time.

Not yet anyway! But my point is that women do choose to wear these clothes. Just because we don’t understand it, that doesn’t mean it’s oppression.

But I was also replying to a lot of the PP who were saying that even the hijab is a form of oppression.