45% of working age people not saving toward a pension at all

Given you have to be significantly into the higher rate tax band to even be covering your own costs on average (i.e. at the average spend per person across the whole of UK residents) and the fact that the data I presented earlier demonstrates that the spend per head is far, far higher on over 65s than younger cohorts, even those paying higher rate tax are unlikely to be covering their costs to the state per year. And you think the fact that one in NINE of them pays this is somehow a good thing? It’s almost comical that this is your attempt to claim that somehow they’re covering their costs when every credible economic study on the subject demonstrates that they categorically have not and will not do so over their lifetimes, leaving a shortfall as a cohort of approximately £200k per person in real terms between their lifetime tax payments and the state services and welfare they receive.

I suppose you thought this sounded impressive. It isn’t. It actually demonstrates my point, and your complete lack of an adequate grasp of economics or maths, so thank you for your post.

I delineated the data by age cohort of those over retirement age or not because we are discussing pensions so spending per head by age is highly relevant, particularly when multiple posters (as usual) have falsely tried to claim that there has been a significant increase in the cost of welfare to those of working age which is proved to be false by the data.

I’m an economist so I am used to extracting data from the published sources and analysing it and have tried to present it clearly here in graphs to demonstrate the basic factual matters which many posters seem unable to grasp, which is a large part of the reason the UK is in the mess it is in currently: a far too high proportion of the electorate refuses to accept economic reality as can be seen by these posts.

When it is presented to them they start to deny that the data is valid even though it’s from publicly published verified sources like the national accounts, departmental budgets and analyses and the ONS. Data is met with whataboutery and denial of its validity rather than any actual response to the facts presented, every single time one tries to inject any facts or daya into the discussion. People would rather argue about their prejudices than discuss actual facts, every single time.

I have no political affiliation and am politically homeless in the UK because there isn’t a single party prepared to speak the truth and make evidence-based policy. I call out comments from all sides of the political spectrum when they are factually wrong.

Too many people seem determined to condemn the future generations of UK population to the inevitable poverty that will follow the ongoing economic decline which has resulted from the status quo and been exacerbated by extremely unwise choices over the last decade in particular and will continue to accelerate as long as this approach continues.

It’s not yet too late to change it but it will require grabby and entitled people, in particular those in the older cohorts, to accept reality and prioritise the future of their children and grandchildren and have a little humbleness regarding the needlessly dire circumstances that younger generations are already enduring as a result of the actions of those who are now retired. It will also require some social responsibility from everyone and a fairer distribution of the tax burden which is currently disproportionately placed on higher earning (but not wealthy) PAYE earners which is not sustainable. You cannot have European models of state services and welfare when the majority of the electorate do not pay anything close to their own costs, it simply cannot happen in a country without huge natural resources/ exports which we do not have (and obviously have far less of since Brexit self-sabotage, meaning we are now importing immense amounts of inflation as was predicted).

I won’t hold my breath.

If people refuse to change their entitled behaviour - particularly the older cohorts who have already taken far more from the country than they will ever contribute to it yet demand more and more - then they should at least have the decency to own the consequences honestly rather than continuously trying to blame everyone else, when the data categorically refutes their spurious claims that young people are “lazy” or “workshy” and it is in fact their own generation that screwed our economy and continues to do so. Accusing people of lying whenever they point out the glaringly obvious proven fallacies is ridiculous and just shows how little that generation care about actually improving anything in the UK.

The truth doesn’t care about your theories or ideologies. It lies in wait for all time.

I know everyone has forgotten that England's wealth was originally founded on sheep farming. The Cotswolds are a beautiful manmade landscape and places like Cirencester and Burford are property magnets few of us can afford to live in, because of sheep. England exported wool and woollen goods to Europe for 1000 years.

I live on the edge of Dartmoor. The soil is thin and rocky, so it's unsuitable for cereal crops. It's highish altitude and cold and wet all winter, so cattle don't thrive, except for Highland breeds like Belted Galloways. You end up with sheep which are perfectly adapted to the environment. But to be profitable, you need to make money on the meat (delicious) and/or the wool (which is currently too expensive to shear and not in demand anyway, until we go back to buying woollen carpets).

While I agree that would have been more sensible, you have to recognise that the population of Norway is less than 10% of the UK. The population is much more centralised on big cities, where it is easier to deliver services. Much of Norway is close to uninhabitable but every sheltered pock in the UK landscape is farmed and cultivated, until you are into the Highlands.

What would have been if we had set up a sovereign wealth fund like Norway and invested the revenue from North Sea oil instead of tax cuts for the rich. Maybe a pension fund as well to invest for the future generations rather than sell off the family silver, while destroying our industries. How great would that be?

You’re welcome ☺️

Thanks for the further stats @BIossomtoes

I forgot to @DrRylandGraceas it was in response to her

Hard to see how means testing would work, with the majority of pensions being defined contributions you'd probably get people taking the lump sum 10 years before state pension age, retiring earlier to run down the amount below any threshold for means testing. Of course they could say it's deprivation of assets but that would be hard to say since you'd just be living in the income -could easily get through 500k in 10 years with an average lifestyle. The above is more or less my plan anyway though I will have a modest dB pension to top up state pension from 67.

It's good to see some much needed nuance brought into the “them versus taxpayers and the young” debate around pensions and ageing.

We can't do much about the number of people reaching pension age, but we can do much more to influence how many healthy years people have before and during retirement.

Improving health across all age groups should be far more front and centre in the discussion. Delaying or reducing avoidable chronic health conditions could potentially save billions of pounds a year in NHS and social care costs, while also improving quality of life and easing pressure on stretched public services.

https://ifs.org.uk/data-items/share-adult-population-paying-income-tax-age-bracket

And according to AI:

Around 1 in 9 taxpaying pensioners (roughly 11%) pay the higher or additional rate of income tax. Due to frozen tax thresholds, the proportion of older adults pulled into higher tax brackets is steadily climbing. 1, 2, 3]

Key Taxpayer Facts for the Over-70 Demographic:

Total Taxpayers: Over 5.4 million Britons aged 70+ pay income tax, a number that outpaces the total taxpayers aged under 30.

Higher Rate Transition: An estimated 1.3 million people aged 60 and over (a substantial portion being over 70) are being dragged into the higher or additional rate bands.

Shift to Higher Taxes: The proportion of taxpaying pensioners paying a 40% tax rate or higher has grown rapidly. 1, 2, 3]

You can review HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) statistics directly on GOV.UK or explore analysis on generational tax shifts via the Institute for Fiscal Studies. 1]

I might not be correct, but I thought the stats were boomers are currently taking out 20% more than they paid in roughly. But that’s not accounting for inheritance tax, which is expected to raise £15 bn a year from 2030 from boomers. Especially with the new changes wrapping pensions into inheritance tax.

Im a millennial, so I’m not being defensive. I just want to check the figures, as they aren’t what I understand them to be. I think I saw the latest stat was more over 70s are paying tax than under 30s. So with more pensioners being dragged into tax, and inheritance tax capturing pensions also, the needle might move on the deficit that the boomer generation have

Life expectancy is falling but that assertion that few people live into old age is risible. If that were the case half the welfare budget wouldn’t be pensions.

What?? Life expectancy is at an all time high! Or you meant this rhetorically?

What to are you talking about?
That blasé ignorance is part of the problem
Female life expectancy is 84.

These sorts of thread always turn into bashing a particular generation. It’s dull.

how did you find all these data? e.g. housing costs for pensioners specifically? adult social care for pensioners vs all adults who get it? free prescriptions for pensioners specifically vs benefits claimants?

You make a statement that specific cohort, pensioners in this case, take more from state than they contributed over lifetime so this needs urgent review and redistribution. Why do you select this cohort by age? what about working age benefits claimants, a lot of whom never worked at all?

This from the FSFC lists the most recent failed firms.
Failed firms | Firms in default | FSCS https://share.google/uxka217jpLy7nVEcf

I didn’t say you were inventing the data. I said the figures, particularly the assertion that Boomers have a huge deficit while Gen X and millennials have an even bigger surplus, don’t look or feel correct. It’s not unreasonable to ask for your source. Anyone who knows my posting history knows I’m a great fan of data and facts - and link to my sources.

Open sipps for children now £100 or £80 to get them open ..opening them is the hardest part. Once they are there it's there.

Indont understand the dislike of an ISA along side pension

No. I said that the DWP figure alone only includes state pension welfare, pension credit, other pensioner welfare such as winter fuel allowance etc. And that my graphs include this AND the costs spent on them by other Government departments and Local Councils such as healthcare costs, social care costs, etc. Obviously I have not “double counted” anything by adding the DWP costs to the costs that other departments spend on the over 65s as each cost is only included in one department’s budget. They don’t record spending in two different budgets otherwise the total Government spending figure would not sum to the total!

But you said in your previous quote that you were adding in additional costs like housing, heating, winter fuel etc - these were already included in that 55% figure. I am confused by your figures- they don’t seem remotely correct to me. Pensioner social care is at 0.6% of GDP. Only 40% of the NHS spend goes on pensioners. I know that’s for roughly 20% of the population, but as we get older, we’ll all probably need more healthcare.

But silly people like us should just be quiet, and stop bothering them with data and nonsense like that! Their “opinions” are as important as data even if they directly contradict the data because once upon a time they lived in a paper bag in a hole in the road, and their neighbours were jealous, or some other tiresome anecdote.

Thank you. Although of course I’m apparently inventing the data, according to the posters above who are allergic to data and facts! Quelle surprise…

My source material is the published data produced by the ONS and Her/ now His Majesty’s Government. You are more than welcome to look at this source data yourself because it is publicly available, as it always has been.