Controversial but I don’t think any IVF should be state-funded.

What nonsense? Teenage girls getting pregnant (unlikely, and that also includes 18 and 19 year olds who are adults) or IVF on the NHS? (As reform want to get rid of the NHS that's more likely.)

Getting rid of the NHS might well mean less women have kids because the cost is ridiculous. The c section and the week in hospital I had when DS was born would have been ridiculously expensive in somewhere like the USA even with medical insurance.

Yes I agree with this. Also leaving the thread now. I think it's a pretty unsavoury thread.

All I will say is @Spiderbug try and have some compassion and empathy. This thread is very unkind.

Yeah I had my first at 38/39 and my age was literally never mentioned.

I'm now 41 and trying for a second and I may well have left it too late but wouldn't expect the NHS to fund IVF for me (and FWIW, wouldn't judge teenage mums unless they start stupid threads).

Well they will have paid plenty of tax before the issue of having a child occurred.
You on the other hand paid no tax.

Maybe tell them what you think then.

its controversial I agree. I can’t even work out where I stand because I’m not 100% sure I agree with IVF; I’m not sure I believe children are a universal right.. i definitely do not agree with surrogacy in any circumstance for example. I think that’s a bit of a dangerous idea to come up with other ways of having children even when nature says no tbh. How on earth you police playing god with children / new life I really don’t know, who qualifies, who doesn’t? From my limited understanding I think there are many reasons why someone would require IVF- I think it’s a slippery slope because are some of those possibly self inflicted? I think that’s what you are saying. Maybe some people who can’t have children would be wonderful parents, and some who have children easily are terrible parents. Are you also ok to say if you’ve smoked, you don’t get free treatment for cancer? I don’t know where you draw the line so maybe it’s better to not draw any lines.. complex..

OK.

Teen births are about 2% of all live births (though you don't mean people age 18 and 19 do you, you mean the 15 year olds who need loads more help, but let's stick with this). There are about 650,000 births per year in the UK. Obviously there are more teen mums walking around than there are births per year because everyone who was a teen mum last year is a "teen mum" for life. So taking people whose children are still under 18, there may be 234,000 teen mums around with youngish children, taking care of their children, at any given time.

There are about 18 million women in the UK between 15 and 50 at any given time. Take off the 234,000 of that cohort who are themselves teen mums and that's about 17.7 million women in the UK.

How many women out of those 17.7 do we think really do disapprove of teen mums and think they are selfishly costing the state? Well, Charities say that teen mums are often abused, and I take lived expertise as really strong evidence when the themes are identified and brought together by civil society voices. So I believe there is stigma. Let's say, again to be super generous to OP and to the lived experience of stigma, that 1/3 of all women, of this childbearing age group also disapprove of teen mums.

That's an assumed 5.9 million women age 15-50, who have not themselves been teen mums, and who could think teen mums are selfish spongers, and say so.

Per year there are 15-17,000 NHS funded IVF treatments. Let's generously say the figure for individual women having an ivf cycle each year is 15,000 because some will have 2 or 3 cycles allowed so some of them are the same women.

We can't see how those groups overlap- "choosing to have ivf" and "hating teen mums".

But... - EVEN IF ...

Out of all the 15,000 women who have ivf for free, on the NHS, every single one of those women happens to also be in the group of 5.9 million who hate teen mums...

That's only 2.5% of the women, max, who already hate teen mums, choosing to have IVF.

That seems a very high figure - all the IVFers wouldn't hate teen mums, surely. Let's say the opinions of women having IVF are the same as the opinion we have assuumed for the general population. Maybe 5,000 of them (one third) disapprove of teen mums.

So the hypocritical group you are slagging off amounts to 5,000 women per year, or 0.03% of women you might meet in the UK who are of childbearing age. And that's the absolute max I reckon.

I don't think anyone should hate teen mums by the way, and I'm not sure those who do are basing it on the cost to taxpayer.

However if you know 20 of those 5,000 women personally (unlikely!) I'm sure it seems very annoying. Or even if you know one, which seems more likely from your OP.

But there are hardly any of these people with these attitudes in the grand scheme of things. Ignore them.

Be compassionate to both teen mums and infertile people.

30 is not an "older mum". Just to be completely clear here. The NHS considers that average age and 35+ is considered to be advanced maternal age. However, in recent years, because of medical and health advancements, the "geriatric" age range has been upped to 40.

Having IVF at 30 is not because they've left it too late.

I have, it was used a lot in certain newspapers in the 2000s and 2010s.

My mum had me when she was 18, by the time she was my age (37) she had an adult child and three nearly adult children. (All with the same dad.) I didn't have DS till I was 35. Interesting how that worked out!

Have you encountered many of those?

I agree, infertility is a health condition that needs investigated, and if IVF or any other infertility treatment is prescribed then I don't think anything is wrong with that,

But Goggle didn’t make the post you did.

That's evidence that teen mum's face stigma. Not being disputed on this thread.

You've given evidence of how many births are from IVF. Not being disputed on this thread.

Where is the evidence that women who give teen mum's a hard time go on to have tax payer funded IVF at an older age?

Hopefully when Reform take over this nonsense will stop.

Wow, was that actually based on evidence, or just the consultants opinion/anecdote?

I also wonder what "leaving it too late" actually means. You can't start TTC under 30 if you don't meet a suitable partner until you're 35. I don't think many people are delaying it just as a choice - only due to circumstances. It would be interesting to know the actual data though.

OP - as you can tell by this thread, plenty of people don't think IVF should be funded either. Those of us who've had NHS IVF are aware we are looked down on too! Despite spending years TTC beforehand.

I think the difference is that teen pregnancy is generally an unplanned mistake, through carelessness/not using suitable contraception, or if intentional hasn't been thought through for long. Needing IVF later in life usually follows years of longing and heartbreak and planning.

Perhaps if we're talking NHS pregnancy costs we could look at all the interventions that pregnant women need because they have chosen unhealthy lifestyles? How does the round of IVF to create my baby compare cost-wise to care/treatment for mothers who are very overweight, smoke, don't exercise etc? (Or my anecdotal example of someone having 3 cesareans purely through choice, no medical need.)

• For the record, a round of IVF privately through my nearest NHS clinic was around £5000 at the time. I assume the actual costs to the NHS were lower.

I am forever grateful for the chance to be a mum, having regretted following the advice to be sensible as a fertile teenager!

Oh well now AI has stepped in to settle the debate we must all be wrong 🤦🏻‍♀️

Why are there so many goady threads on MN these days?

I think this thread is probably best left.

OP is clearly carrying some hurts, and isn't able to debate clearly.

This.

OP what are you classing as 'older'?

As several people have pointed out, the cut off for IVF on the NHS in most areas is 40, and those people will have to have tried for years, gone through diagnosis and then faced lengthy waiting lists. It is absolutely NOT an easy process.

As several other people have pointed out, the majority of IVF is funded privately so is not costing the taxpayer a penny.

Anyone who simply 'left it too late' will be one of those self funding (and will have paid into the system for years, too).

I'm sorry you faced stigma as a teen mum but honestly, this thread is complete bullshit.

Does it break it down into age groups of patients?

The usage and cost of IVF on NHS will.be readily available information but can you please pinpoint the evidence of how much of that cost is directly associated with "older women" who purposely put off TTC younger AND also have the view that all teenage mothers are a waste of taxpayer funds?

I'd be surprised if that was a well researched topic.