AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

Yes, I'm inclined to think OP has been too soft here. This request is indicative of a poor attitude, and it's sly - presumably they were asked during recruitment if they had any travel plans and they chose not to disclose. I'm sure this won't be the last time this employee causes an issue!

@WatercolourPaper Many companies have similar but what does yours do when an employee ignores the policies and says they’ve booked a month with only 5 days accrued? Should be a discipline matter surely? A stern letter of expectation is not a written warning. Essentially this employee has done what they wanted to do. Of course the HR policies were lax but the difficult decision is whether it’s a disciplinary matter or not and the op has decided not.

This is what I have seen in companies that I have worked for;

Pre booked holiday is discussed at interview

After interview holiday is accrued, then booked.

Any holiday over 2 weeks had to have special approval by the management before booking the holiday

Zero working at home, unless by special agreement

Zero working abroad due to tax rules, security, insurance.

Holiday could be disrupted by how many other people are off due to holiday, sickness, maternity, paternity, family leave etc

Suggest that your company updates their holiday, HR policies

Well handled!

Just catching up and it sounds like you found a really workable solution.

it’s obvious that some people on here don’t run businesses!!

it was totally inappropriate to manage leave like that - just very disrespectful from their side and clearly didn’t understand the impact. It’s also the perceptions of others when they see what’s happening. It sounds like you have a supportive small business and this persons rudeness was about to upset the status quo.

Those saying we all have a right to flexible working etc. actually we don’t!! It has to also fit the business. In my work there is some flexibility for some roles but impossible for others. How can working nights when you’re supposed to be client facing work?!

who on earth books 4 weeks leave in probation when you’ve not even accrued it. Selfish people generally. Not thinking. A good lesson though for them and also great chance to update policies.

I hope they turn out to be ok!!

Of course this person being off impacts others otherwise why would they even have a job

Why are you being a right royal pain in the backside?

OFFS!

Of course 1 person being away adds workload to the other 14. Of course one person being allowed to take liberties may result in 14 other people demanding to take liberties and render the entire business unviable.

You don't seem to have a clue about how businesses work.

If you cannot cope with people rejecting your advice, don't post.

Just because someone asks for advice, doesn't mean they are obliged to follow or agree with any of the responses.

@HelenaWilson You have to worry about why people have no idea about business costs! I find it amazing that posters cannot work out that absence, when not planned, for this length is a cost to the businesses. In fact planned absences are a cost but the business owner has a chance to absorb costs more readily and look at how the work will be covered.

You are implying that this person being away effects 14 other people.

Of course it does. If the person is absent for 20 working days, that's around 1.5 days extra work for each employee. And quite possibly someone else will also be absent in that time, due to illness, or pre-booked leave, which will also have to be covered.

I know op said she will hope to employ a temp, but the temp will have to be trained and supervised, which will take up someone's time.

@estrogone Your other employees now know you make exceptions. This could come back to bite you!

Thanks for your input.

In a small business, it very much does affect the entire team when someone is away for an unexpected and short notice month long trip.

Managing holidays in a small business is difficult, and everyone needs to pitch in to help. But it’s manageable when holiday is requested and approved and plans are made. It is not manageable when it’s a new member of staff who has taken on a client facing role; and is still building those relationships and everyone else (who would have been covering that work during the hiring process) is finally getting back to their own work.

When someone gets ill, or hit by a car or their spouse dies… you bend over backwards to cover for that. This is not an emergency. This is a member of staff totally taking the piss and unable to be professional. Thankfully they have listened to the feedback from the OP and realised the error they made here.

But you clearly have no idea about running a small business so just stop. You’re acting as thought they should be able to absorb a month long absence with ease and she is failing as a business owner if they can’t. That is total nonsense. Just stop. When you’re in a hole and you’ve embarrassed yourself, just stop digging.

When you are a small company, you only employee people as you need them....so anyone missing, no matter what the role, can be very difficult to manage. You need to be realistic. Having one employee missing from a larger organisation is not as much an issue but the smaller you are the harder it is to manage.

What are you talking about? That poster isn’t talking about drinking. They are comparing the idea of spending all day awake, and then working overnight to going to being drunk/hungover. It isn’t possible and will not result in good quality work if you do 4 weeks of it.

They said it’s like staying up all night and drinking, then trying to go to work the next day. You wouldn’t do that. This person wants to stay up all day with family days out and then work overnight - for 4 weeks. It will be like having a drunk employee, exhausted, unable to concentrate or function properly and eventually very unwell.

She said she used to work nights and when she did work nights and tried to attend a party at 2pm, it was horrible - similar to being very drunk/hungover because your brain is struggling. That’s how this person will be every night at work, after spending the days out with family.

You said :
”This person took the piss. I have 14 others to look out for - so whilst I am all for flexibility and work life balance there is an obvious bigger picture. I have the well-being of 15 families to consider. I take that responsibility bloody seriously.”

You are implying that this person being away effects 14 other people.

I am not invested in derailing this thread. I gave my opinion, which you took umbrage too, then you argued with me. As I have said: why ask for opinions if you aren’t willing to listen to other views?

Don’t respond then. But don’t say something then act like you haven’t.

They’re being kept on. Very generous of OP under the circs.

I wish you huge success @estrogone You sound like a sensible and humane employer. Well done!!

My advice is get rid of this person while they are still in the probation period.

They should have mentioned this in the interview, so obviously took the job in bad faith.

Let this go, and things will only get worse.

How does anyone think that it was a reasonable thing for the junior probationer to do? Had the holiday been booked before they got the job, it would absolutely not have been unreasonable for them to ask if there was something that could be done to facilitate it, wfh ft or pt, unpaid leave etc.

However, they booked it after starting a new role, being distinctly in a probationary period, and without asking for written approval first. The majority of jobs require some kind of authorisation to take any time off, whether booked on a schedule, or through a line manager. You get this in writing (to cover your own back) before making any booking. The only exception would be any role in which your contract states you can self authorise leave. Which I would think is uncommon for anyone junior.

The second thing is that they are on probation. The time in a new role that you should be impressing your new bosses, showing them what you can do, ensuring you are a good fit for the role (as well as ensuring its the right role for you). How can you do that when you take a month away? A 100% wfh role would be different, but one that involves any type of in person presence means you should want to be there. Learn as much as you can, become good at the job. Pass your probation, and then book the holiday. I'm not saying you shouldn't take any time off in a probation period, but not a month in one go.

Any exceptions would need to be discussed. I can't see OP being unreasonable if they were asked for the time off due to an unwell family member overseas, or something similar. The fact that they considered the request, for even a minute, shows they had some consideration. But this was a holiday.

I think the offer is completely reasonable, and more than would be needed. A chance to take the holiday, and restart the probationary period. I hope they realise this is the best they could have realistically hoped for, enjoy their holiday, and return with renewed vigour and commitment to the role.

Well done, OP. A constructive and useful outcome, I think, and hopefully they'll come back with their head on properly and ready to be a better employee!
I think you're pretty generous, FWIW, and many employers would have just shown this person the door. I do hope they don't abuse your decent behaviour towards them.
Best of luck. I think you sound like a great boss/company owner.

@Melissazzz The pay saved is not equal to the cost of getting the work done by others. The op doing it has a cost and a temp has a cost.

Most companies have rules about working from home. It must be agreed. If it doesn’t suit the business model, it’s not agreed. If an employee lies about being available for work, when they are not, and it contravenes company policy regarding wfh, there should be a disciplinary interview.