AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

Well quite,why indeed? They're probably not paying for accommodation. That's the only difference.

They’re going to be a very entitled employee if you give in to their request. Leave/unpaid leave, cancel the trip or hand your notice in would be their options if I were in your position. And definitely extend the probation.

why?

I'd be calling them to a meeting on Monday morning (even though you are on holiday) where you verbally tell them you are terminating their employment. Followed up in writing. Kick start the recruitment process as I guarantee this person will not work their notice (there may be no notice period during probation), but will leave instead. Record the meeting if using Teams.

I am tempted to hard arse it, but they are 25 and would lose thousands

And??

If they were worth "thousands" for 12 days of work (the difference between the 5 they've accrued and the 17 they need) then you'd hope they had the sense to realise this won't work, but since they clearly don't you're best off getting rid now

Yes it'll be an issue to recruit and train someone else, but nothing like the issues I guarantee you'll have if you keep them

If you agree to this it would seem like the thin end of a very big wedge. How about other members of staff observing this? Could you end up with everyone working skin a different time zone

I’ve not read the full thread, but do they have a visa to work there, and do you know this is likely to create a tax obligation for your company in the country where they are working (most countries like to tax any income related to work carried out in their country). There are also data implications if client data is being taken out of the country.

To me this is a terrible idea before you even factor in whether the employee can keep up the same level of service or not.

25 is not a sheltered 17 year old who's never seen the outside of their home. 25 is a grown adult with at least marginal awareness of decisions having consequences.

Is your business a 'work anywhere' business (most aren't)? If not, say no. You are not a work anywhere business and they are in a client facing role. The business rules are that you may not take more holiday leave than you have accrued and any leave should be agreed in advance with your line manager. Surely this is standard in all employment contracts?

On the practical side:

• Do they have the legal right to work in the country in which they will be visiting?
• Do you work in a heavily regulated area? If so, you need to consider cross border data and security issues.
• If they have the power to negotiate or agree contracts (not sure what their role is? I was negotiating contracts at that age), it may trigger a local corporate tax presence for the company
• generally, double tax treaties mean they won't be charged tax in both the UK and overseas, but the company may still be required to file a short term business visitor report

Basically, it's a lot of red tape so a thoughtless, still-in-probation junior can go on a jolly, where you know they won't even work a tenth of the hours you're paying them for.

Edit - apologies, I should have read all your replies before posting. I was just so flabbergasted at the balls on this person that I posted too soon! I see you're in Oz, but presumably would have similar tax issues to a UK employer considering the same. I think you've made the right choice that, ultimately, it's not a good fit and you're going to have to train someone else.

Some years ago an assistant was appointed to a full-time post in my team. By the end of the first week they asked to go part-time. If the team had needed less hours a part-time role would have been advertised.

This poster expressed it well.

The employee is indeed a ‘FN’

I like that they didn’t lie. They could have easily made up a family issue

For further context, I just put this situation to my 18 year olds as a neutral hypothetical question.

They said that the person asking for the leave was a CF and knew exactly what they were doing i.e. “easier to get forgiveness than permission”.

You obviously can’t facilitate the remote working, so I think you have 2 options.

1. tell them if they go they’ll fail their probation and won’t have a job to come back to.
2. tell them the leave has to be unpaid.

The option I chose would depend on how good they were. If they were fantastic and already almost irreplaceable, then I’d be inclined to offer them option 2. If not, then it’s option 1 without question.

I would call them in the morning and have a proper discussion about how this is not acceptable and give them the option to cancel or take unpaid leave and if they have a attitude just terminate their contract.

it is crazy that people think this is ok but also doesn’t surprise me.

of course they can’t work nights if out in the day (beyond a couple of hours).

If they had applied for leave before booking the trip would you have allowed them to take accrued leave plus the remainder unpaid?

Whatever you would have done then is what you should do now.

It sends a totally wrong message to more established staff to make a different decision just because the employee has been reckless.

Yes, I suspect you are right.

Most places seek to recruit on local contracts as far as possible now, with special expat contacts being for the kind of senior or specialist employee who has to be recruited internationally - and even then it's more about paying relocation expenses and retaining potentially more favourable annual leave, sick leave conditions written into their contract in line with country of origin (so someone relocating from the UK or EU retaining 24/30 days paid annual leave and more generous sick leave when moving to work in the US or something).

Few people get to WFH in different time zones unless doing so is actually required for the role - business travel, not going to see your boyfriend/ girlfriend or even parents outside normal annual leave.

Actually I agree with this, with the angle that I'm assuming this person is fairly young and I've found Gen Zs need everything making absolutely crystal clear for them - they have got pretty poor professional 'temperature taking' skills, IME. So although they're still in the wrong, I think it's a wider trend of them not really understanding how the working world works/what's appropriate. Most of the Gen Zs I employ now didn't have a job until they left university - whereas most of my friends had jobs from 14 onwards, so I think they're not learning how to exist in a boss/employee relationship and it's making them stupid!

Unpaid leave and extension of probation is the most generous I could be, I don’t know if I’d keep them. It’s just not the attitude I’d want- they are hoping to be paid for doing halfassed work while on holiday during probation. And let’s be honest, probation is the opportunity to see if someone works out. Anyone who’s thought about failing someone’s probation, not done that and then regretted it enormously understands that. I’d check very carefully your policies and contract though, and say what they are in breach of.

If they behave like this now they will be a nightmare in future.

I’d go for extending probation and giving them unpaid leave, let them know not to take their laptop out of the country.

There aren’t many workplaces where you can book a month off at short notice for a holiday!

Just read your post OP where they mooted the idea and you say you didn't respond. I have learned over the years to make my opinion on such matters crystal clear because otherwise CFs take the lack of comment as implicit agreement. I'm not talking only about work situations. That they may have thought they could go ahead (I guarantee that will be their response) is not your concern. It wasn't a formal request in line with policy and it wasn't agreed to.

Tough one. We've had two members of staff go back to their country of origin soon into working with us - one after 3 months (for 5 weeks) and one did 2 weeks probation and then went away for a month. Both times we were fairly happy to accommodate because we knew it must be hard living a long way from home and that visits tended to be rare therefore long, etc. The first person worked three of the five weeks he was away and took two as holiday, the second just took it unpaid. So I don't think wanting to go is that much of a pisstake - presumably it's visiting family so they might not have had much say in when it was but also (given the current job market, although maybe not in Aus) be desperate to have a job and just hoping it works out. Their mistake was not being upfront about it in the first place, I think - but while it looks sneaky or deliberate it could just as easily be youthful overconfidence, being terrified to tell you, family pressure and triyng to do both, etc etc. I wouldn't immediately assume malice over idiocy.

If it were me I'd probably give them a stern warning about communicating properly instead of hoping everything works out and say we could trial 2 weeks of it working and 2 weeks unpaid, but if I noticed a drop in standards then they would have to take it all unpaid. Or just offer it unpaid and see what they say.

No. They will need to take unpaid leave. They certainly can't be paid to work when on holiday.

I definitely wouldn’t agree to WFH

but otherwise very strong and doing well and heading hard… I would agree to unpaid leave

This.
Unreasonable to work abroad.
Tell her to take hols or unpaid leave if not enough leave and extend probation by a month.

Nope, needs to learn how the business world works. Whilst there is some flexibility nowadays, this is totally unreasonable.
Holidays must be approved, there are limits on how long you can take holidays for in many businesses. You can’t allow this person to dictate the rules. As it will happen again, and others may follow suit.
The working abroad thing is ridiculous IMO and isn’t going to get done.
You either agree to unpaid leave or let them go completely