AIBU to think a junior probationer’s month abroad request is unreasonable?

My organisation don’t permit working from abroad for data security reasons.

Just a BIT cf??

I’d say 100% cheeky fucker-ish.

And would terminate their probation period PDQ.

OP, I'm also in Australia. As a business owner, this would be a pain in the arse for sure, but having read your posts, it seems like you may have identified a gap in your onboarding process as well as a mismatch between what you and I would think is common sense, the right way to do things and the expectations of the younger generation.

As you've said this person has been a hard worker and starting over with training someone new, I'd have a good look at what you might be able to make work.

Our family travels a lot. My husband still works when away. Our recent trip to Asia, the time difference was a big help. He would start between 5-6 am, depending on meetings and be available for pretty much all morning meetings in Aus time. We were not on a scheduled vacation type of tour, so this really heps as we can work around meetings. The family and I can go off and explore in the mornings, leaving DH to work, by afternoon, things were wrapping up in Aus and so then he would do things with us. He would then put in another 3-4 hours each night, once we were back at the hotel. DH travelled with laptops from more than one company as he is a consultant and they use different software.

You mention this person staying with family, so this isn't an organised tour and it would give them some flexibility. Are you sure there's not any parts of the role they can still cover, therefore leaving less of a gap in the role? Just trying to find a way to manage the circumstances, even though clearly not ideal for you.

I get that it's a pain for you, but maybe there are parts of the role they can still do, leaving you with less that needs covering by a temp.

Are they good? If so I’d probably see if they can have one month unpaid leave if no I’d reject their request and they’ll probably leave.

@estrogone they are junior. With all the struggles young people face (and this person is likely being paid not much at all) just let them
do it. If it doesn’t work then it’s a no in the future isn’t it?

They’re hardly crucial to the business if a junior. Why be a piece of work about it? Pardon the pun.

I would tell them that they cannot work whilst they are travelling. End of.

I would tell them that as they didn’t clarify the dates with you then they are lucky that you’re not dismissing them.

Tell them that you’ll be nice and offer 2 weeks of it as AL and the other 2 weeks as unpaid.
Or they can hand in their notice.

I think they’re going to claim they told you about it though.

Id be wtaf too. Decline and tell them their 4 weeks is their notice of failed probation

The could have very easily lied and made out it was for a family related issue

they didn’t. They were absolutely upfront.., this is a holiday.

So that is a positive

It is an absolute crimson, scarlet, burgundy, petunia, pillar box, cardinal red
flag yes.

Unless this person leaves (or is fired) existing members of staff would be well within their rights to try the same thing. You say no. They then escalate a grievance as they’ve been there, what, ten years and never had any such consideration. THey resign and claim CD. You settle as you don’t want the costs and distraction. The whole thing costs hundreds of thousands not to mention management time.

It is a massive red flag covering a huge can of worms, to mix a few metaphors.

Firstly it depends what your HR Policy is as to whether it’s an unreasonable request or not.

Secondly it depends on what your Information Security policy is on working from abroad and taking company equipment to certain countries which can be blocked due to high risk.

So it really depends on the size of your organisation as to what provisions are in place that mean this isn’t a query of opinion but rather what the company does or doesn’t support for all its employees.

Is this not quite the red flag for this employee’s future behaviour though?

I think there may be tax issues if they work from a different country. Does your employment contract state they need to have holiday approved before booking tickets?
I personally think they’re a CF, I’ve had someone do this to me before as he was working in the UK and booking tickets home and just assumed he could work from Asia without fan checking first. He was a lying snake to be honest so I had no concerns about telling him no … I wouldn’t have any worries telling this person no either … he’ll leave I suspect but hey ho!

If it does not meaningfully suit the needs of the business as laid out prior to them booking the trip then I would be declining this, what they've spent on the holiday isn't a factor as this was their own decision. They haven't posed a reasonable or workable set of adjustments, they have effectively decided they are going regardless. I would expect that they would simply leave when you decline the request - I have had quite a few young people over the years simply quit when similar holiday requests have been declined - big summer trips, short notice things they regard as once-in-a-lifetime opportunities etc

I doubt anyone is really so stupid as to not understand, on probation especially, that this is likely not to wash. I wouldn't eb considering any other action other than declining the request and additionally would not be keeping them on either, given they are on probation. This shows very poor lack of judgement and a lack of professionalism that I wouldn't view it as my/others jobs to educate or correct.

You're nice re they're only 25!! That's old enough to know this isn't how things work, if they were 17 I could be empathetic. They've shown disrespect to you and little regard for their job. It would be taking the piss to book a week off without checking, yet alone at a new job, yet alone in a probationary period, yet alone for this length of time. I can imagine if you said yes they'd have problems and issues whilst working away. Also working on a holiday, you're on holiday or you're working. Good luck

I'd maybe go in with just a 'No, I am not approving this as paid leave,' and then depending on their attitude consider offering the unpaid as an option - if they shrug and say 'Ok well I won't be coming in, so shall I hand in my notice now,' let them. If they are gutted and say they really want to keep the job, but they'd already booked the trip before getting it and didn't know how to bring it up, blah blah blah, I'd maybe consider it, but with a stern warning that they cannot do this again, it's not fair on your other staff.

The 10 hour time difference means that they will not be able to carry out their duties. Unless it's project work which needs zero input from anyone else in the same time zone.

I find it hard enough working with Eastern US time zone colleagues, which is - 5 hours to BST.

Is it annual leave or a working holiday, or what? I don't understand their expectations.

If you let them do this then surely, once word gets around, none of your otherstaff will want to put in for their annual leave. Say they need to use all their leave to cover school holidays so they save if for that, fancy and if they fancy other time off in addition just make up convoluted plan how they can still do their work, and get paid, while climbing mountains or deep sea diving.

For me there is no ‘conversation in passing’ when someone is mentioning they might go away for a month. It was like a big massive gauntlet for you to pick up right there. But. How to deal ?

They will have been with you long enough to know how to ask for leave. And to do it formally ? If you don’t have processes in place other than asking verbally you are on a sticky wicket. If you don’t have email requests or something similar then make sure you do in future. They have presented you with a no notice request for leave. For a month! Except they may have interpreted the ‘chat’ as an all clear to go ahead. Since you didn’t ask or say no I need to think about that.

If you think they are a bit naive then certainly still go over the formal arrangements for booking leave. And it isn’t a ‘chat’ that is ‘I’m thinking I might’.

I would not approve the shortened hours or overnight working, no. Explain that the chat of ‘I might be’ was not a clear ‘ can I ask you if it would be okay to take leave for a month ‘? And that you are consequently left high and dry with no notice. So if he takes it, it is as unpaid leave. Surely he must have realised that this might not be okay ? Explain it will impact his probation. All behaviours and work have to be considered when assessing. This is part of that.

Explain you are disappointed. It is foolish to make someone stay if they don’t want to so I would be inclined to let him go. But as long as he knows you are very unhappy and it will be part of his probation assessment. And unpaid.

I wouldn’t hire him.

I’m public sector, we are not allowed to work abroad, so this would be a breach with a disciplinary and sacking if we persisted and took the trip.

A colleague had a holiday rearranged from COVID and one of the two weeks fell in term time. As the job included term time holidays only allowed with permission, she wasn’t given permission and couldn’t go. Her parents went and she joined them for the second week,

I’m not convinced that this is a generational thing, I know quite a few of this age group and younger and they would absolutely not expect to get away with this even as a permanent employee. P* takers come in all age categories.

This last bit has clinched it for me: they're a pisstaker.

The very most I would allow would be unpaid leave for the time they haven't accrued A/L for, and I would remind them of the procedure for booking A/L, and recommend that in future they check that leave will be possible before they book any trips away.

I can see from posts you’re Aus, but probably need to think about the tax implications of them working for you from another company.

It’s not like you’re sending them abroad for business with a client, so imagine there may be a tax liability to consider.

That would be a difficult proposition for someone who had been in the role for a while never mind someone in a probation period. At the very least they should have discussed the logistics of how it might work before booking. Would be an absolute no from me.

We have a WFH policy aligned with local statutory requirements but overseas working isn't covered.

For many (most?) countries it's not legal to work remotely without the appropriate visa & local taxes should be levied on income earned while working in that country.

Booking a holiday without agreeing the time off or alternative working arrangements with their line manager is ridiculous. This employee should be told that is not the way it works. You would be within your rights to refuse it. Whether you do or not is up to you and HR. But they need a stern warning whatever happens. Is there anything in their contract about working arrangements that they could he reminded of?