Why do we put animals out of their misery but let humans suffer?

Yes, these are the kinds of objections raised by the House of Lords when they tabled enough amendments to the AD bill to make sure it ran out of time.

They will probably do the same if it's raised in the next Parliament, which it most likely won't be.

So people won't be able to choose AD in the UK, even though most people are in favour of choice. Going to Dignitas or Pegasos in Switzerland is an option but it's not ideal.

Just want to clarify something.

In principle I'd never begrudge someone the ability to end things at a time of their own choosing, and I agree with those who are saying people should have control over their own departure, so to speak. But in a way that's partly why I don't feel able to unequivocally support an assisted dying bill unless certain conditions are met which in practice would be difficult to meet. To take the example of the Canadian lady who was killed on the orders of her partner - the choice of when to go was robbed from her. Hopefully that's an isolated instance but it demonstrates that it can happen.

I just see massive potential for abuse, all the more so because it's already going on in other countries. If it was possible to come up with an iron-clad agreement that could guarantee the person's wishes be respected at all times, and (more difficult but potentially more problematic) if there was some way to guard against coercion, I'd feel differently. And I absolutely believe that coercion (even if subtle) would be an issue - sadly, too much of society already sees the elderly and disabled as a burden (as has been seen in a ton of MN threads recently), and for many it would take very little for them to be convinced, for whatever reason, that there is no point to them any more. There's a world of difference between a person making that decision for themselves and giving in to familial or societal pressure to make it.

I understand that, and I'm sorry to hear your mum's going through this.

I agree, that's a much more frightening prospect to me than the thought of dying. The key is choice.

I think people should have the choice to have an AD if they don't want to spend possibly years incapacitated in a care home, due to a degenerative illness, old age, dementia etc.

If people do want to carry on living, and don't want an AD, that's great. But there should be a choice that people can make before they lose capacity, something like a Living Will / Advanced Decision which exists already.

I don't think it will happen in the UK because there are too many vested interests. But I hope it might become law somewhere like the Isle of Man or Channel Islands.

If the timescale of the condition is tied to the timescale of her life (as it appears from your description) then I’d have thought it would be considered terminal. Mind you that’s academic until AD is available.

Not all illnesses are terminal however there are some which will make quality of life pretty grim @ruethewhirl My mum has a degenerative condition which isn’t terminal but will make the last few months/weeks of her life bloody awful. She has expressed that she wants to die before getting to that stage and apparently has ‘plans’ in place to do just that. I support her choice.

You can have poor quality of life, and no prospect of recovery, without actually being terminal.

My mother spent 9 years in a care home, due to loss of mobility, getting gradually worse. At the start she was OK other than being unable to stand, walk or do anything physical like dress herself, but she had years of this, much of the time in pain, and starting to lose her mental faculties. Her last 6 months were awful. She had many health conditions but she wasn't terminally ill.

I can't speak for her, but if it were me then at some point I would have wanted it all to end.

Why whether they have a terminal illness or not?

I couldn’t agree more. The idea of languishing in a care home, waiting for someone to change my nappy and do even the most basic things for me for goodness knows how long is absolutely abhorrent to me.

I appreciate others may not feel the same and that’s their prerogative but I don’t see why my choice is any less valid than theirs.

I think we should have a law where people can choose AD whether they have a terminal illness or not and before they lose capacity. Of course safeguarding would have to be robust. I dread the thought of languishing in a care home for years on end, unable to manage my own personal care. Others may not think like that, which is fine, but I think there should be a choice.

That will never happen in the UK unfortunately.

Yes, I agree and for the House of Lords to talk out the AD bill is outrageous.

They are mostly a privileged group who don't have much idea of what life is like for ordinary people. They're happy to take away other people's choice because their wealth insulates them from reality.

But she wouldn’t have the capacity to choose to die, so a change in the law wouldn’t protect her.
Andvit would be unethical for her relatives to decide

I believe that people don’t know how awful it is until they have to see a relative go through it with their own eyes. I strongly believe in assisted dying and think that all those who voted against it in parliament can’t have had to go through it themselves yet

That bottom article is 26 years old! You're really scraping the barrel when you can't find anything that demonstrates current medical outcomes so have to go back over a quarter of a century. Furthermore, thats 85% that DON'T suffer complications. That's a pretty good rate! It is of course irrelevant anyway as you are continuing to focus on the death not the dying.

You previously berated someone for bringing money into a conversation about life and death. This is the second time you've done it. So it's ok for you but not for others?

Those studies linked to are from 2012 and 2000 so not exactly recent @XenoBitch. And yes, I agree with you - watching someone suffer dreadfully before they die is bloody awful and can cause PTSD.

Witnessing a loved one begging for death for weeks on end can also cause PTSD.
A loved one at the end of life, especially one cut short with suffering involved, is awful for everyone.

And would you stand by that if it carried the risk that some would end up being killed against their will?

I agree with you.

It’s horrendous. I watched a parent die in agony over several days. They did nothing, the pain medication didn’t even touch the sides and I’ll never erase those screams when they were moved in their bed to try and prevent sores etc.

Utterly abhorrent that we subject people to that in this day and age.

If that’s what might be in store for me then I’d rather take matters into my own hands.

I often think that those who are against it would likely change their minds if they were subjected to watching a loved one go through it.

I acknowledge that palliative care in this country is dire however it isn’t the amazing thing that will ensure you shuffle off this mortal coil smiling gently in absolutely no pain or distress that some think it is.

Neither is assisted dying.
In fact, witnessing assisted dying can also cause PTSD
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924933810002683

and 3 in 20 assisted dying procedures experience one or more complications
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200002243420805

You can’t know whether investment into palliative care would come to nothing.
Imagine if you were the one making decisions on whether society should invest into better pain relief for childbirth. Or thought that five shots of whisky and a stick to bite on was the best we can ever do when amputating a septic limb.

I think it is more cruel as a society to decide that assisting the terminally ill in their suicide is worth murdering mostly vulnerable women.

It crosses a moral and ethical line, especially when these terminally ill people have the legal right and ability to take matters into their own hands and shorten their suffering. Not passing this bill doesn’t force anyone to suffer any longer than they can bear because suicide is not illegal. They still have full autonomy to choose when and how to die, they just don’t get to require the NHS help them with it and leave us to foot the bill when we are so broke that many lives are being lost due lack of healthcare, errors in healthcare, ambulances not showing up. A sooner death is so far down the priority list on what this country should fund imho,

This bill is requiring that the NHS provide a person medical assistance in their own suicide. Even setting aside the abusers and murderers that exploit assisted dying, think what would you cut in the NHS to pay for this?

Watching my dad slowly suffocate over several days has affected my mum so badly that she’s actually stockpiled some medication to take when she’s at the point where she doesn’t want to carry on. I’m not sure how palliative care would have helped him - a ventilator would have kept him breathing but he would have had to come off it eventually, it would just delay the inevitable.

I acknowledge that palliative care in this country is dire however it isn’t the amazing thing that will ensure you shuffle off this mortal coil smiling gently in absolutely no pain or distress that some think it is.

I’ll still go when I’m ready, but it isn’t going to be comfortable or easy like it would be in an assisted dying facility.