To think that school should take all kids who want to do Bronze D of E?

Which is why many posters have questioned that as being true.

It is incredibly unlikely that the school have arranged to take 145 / 175 and just left out 5. IF that happened, it would be rubbish, but it almost certainly hasn't.

The OP hasn't answered that point, just mentioned she happens to know 5 people who didn't get a place.

My dd applied when she was at school, and didn't get a place. I knew one other pupil who didn't get a place. I did not then start ranting it is unfair that "only 2 people were left out", I understood there were only 30 places for a school year with 150 pupils in in, so even if some didn't want to apply, there would be plenty of dc who weren't lucky enough to get a place. I just encouraged her to give it a go through another organisation instead.

I'm also confused as to why many seem to agree it's fair that kids whose parents volunteer to help should be given priority?

If you have parents with the time, skills and motivation to help with D of E, you are already at an advantage, as surely it's very likely that those parents also use their time, skills and motivation to give you other enriching experiences.

Surely it's the kids whose parents can't or won't do this who will benefit most from D of E?

I'm obviously not suggesting those kids should automatically move to the bottom of the list. But not should they be advantaged.

In schools where demand for D of E places outstrips capacity, the only fair ways of allocating places are:

A) lottery system
B) selection process (based on application, references, interview, prior extra curricular involvement, whatever, as long as the criteria are made clear to all involved, and relate to what the child themself does and not their family).

B is in many ways preferable as it gives the kids valuable real life experience of selection processes, but it's a huge investment of time to organise this, so it's not fair to make it an expectation.

I also think it would be reasonable to have a quota in terms of number of students in receipt of FSM, and perhaps gender and ethnicity too if the school currently has inequalities in terms of outcomes for certain groups. I realise that not everyone will agree with me on this.....

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but respect for parents who volunteer to help with D of E - that's a brilliant thing to do - it's not something I have even considered as a parent, so you are better people than me! But it shouldn't be used as a way to circumvent the school's selection process.

MC mothers have decided it’s an important milestone they want for UCAS but it absolutely isn’t.

And the children of those MC mothers are probably the ones who get least out of it. They are already doing the extra-curriculars they use for skills. The mothers helicopter them through the volunteering and expedition preparation instead of letting them do it themselves. You see the threads here: Where can my dd do her volunteering? What food should my ds take on his DofE expedition?

And very little appreciation of the time and effort put in by the adults organising it all, as seen on this thread.

OP, you haven't answered lots of the relevant questions here.

You seem to only have got involved at this point - when the residential is being planned.

Did your dc try to sign up at the beginning of the academic year?

Did your dc want and have plans for the volunteering, physical and skills sections?

It seems from what you have written that you and your dc have only expressed and interest and offered help for the expedition part. At our school this is months into the award with 2 sections having to be completed to allowed to go.

Did you raise the selection system and being left out at beginning?

There is nothing lazy about offering D of E! It takes up vast amounts of teacher time, all unpaid! What you are proposing is that staff should, on top of the huge time commitment they are already giving for free, give additional swathes of their own free time to organise a selection process? Otherwise they are lazy? Does this honestly sound fair and just to you?

Its not appalling organisation. Its logistics.

You clearly have no idea how tough it is organising a trip. Staff ratios. Bus numbers etc...

55 is a full bus. 60 would require an additional bus which would be another £800+. Plus additional staff for ratio.

My trip had 42 potential people who could apply. 35 applied. 25 places. 28 seater bus. 3 staff. Another bus would have been another £1600 so an extra £60 per child.

@SunnyRedSnail it really matters if the entire cohort was 35, ir just 35 applied out of many more.

If a handful more applied, its disappointing. If only a handful are not able to go (say, 60 in year, 55 places) thats appaling organization.

@Lessexpected YABU.

They had more people apply than they had places. The names were drawn out of a hat and done fairly.

As a teacher who organises trips it's so frustrating when parents moan. It's difficult to staff trips. Teachers are on duty 24-7 (not paid overtime).

I had 35 people apply for a trip I had 25 places for. I used a random name thing to choose who got a place. Some kids then change their mind so I can offer a place to those on reserve.

Its just not feasible to offer everyone a place, even though we would like to.

Our school limits numbers. It’s a ballot so it’s just your luck if you get in or not. One of my sons opted to do it through the Scouts as he knew he’d get a place that way. My other son didn’t get a place (but someone dropped out so got on at last minute)

That’s not true, you don’t have to have done bronze to do silver - you can start straight at silver but it just takes longer. Same with gold you can go straight to that at 16 but need to do it for longer - ex DofE manager here so have had experiences of children who haven’t done bronze but did silver.

Do they also do silver? If they won’t give him a place for bronze can you get them to put him top of the list for silver?

You absolutely can do direct entry at any level of DoE. You need to do longer for each section, but you can start at any level. Basically a previous award gives you a discount on the total length.

We need @Lessexpected to clarify school size. While she knows of 5 who didn't get chosen, does she really know every family of that year group (as she suggests?!).

You can’t do Silver unless you’ve completed Bronze. Same with Gold. The point is to show commitment. Otherwise everyone would choose to start with Gold.

I think all DC should have access to do DofE. Could you look for a centre that offers open DofE? My DD did hers through school but DS did his through scouts (during COVID) and foster son did his through our fostering agency. This is an activity I'd support government subsidising instead of theme parks.

Only leaving 5 is beyond shite and I do not know any school that would do that. Picking names out of a hat is shite and lazy too. Running a club before to see commitment and for kids to try it is far better. Kids will drop out out

All that background is irrelevant and a distraction to they picked names out of a hat because of limited places. If you had have put that in the OP the vote would likely be totally different. YABU

It probably depends on school size. Has @Lessexpected actually clarified how many children didn't get selected or is it a possible exaggeration that her son is one of a handful not doing it?
I don't know any school where most of the year do D of E. In the schools I worked in to leave out around 5 kids would mean approx 175 taking part (assuming everyone in the year wanted to).
This is why there is usually only around 30 who do it. To be honest I am not sure the schools I worked in ever had issues with everyone wanting to do it and the numbers were usually fine.

Is it a private school with a very small year group and therefore an expectation that all children do everything as you are paying for the privilege?

You feel the school should take a smaller number of children than they have capacity for (meaning more kids miss our) jusr in order to avoid upsetting those who are missing out? That seems strange reasoning. If Dbof E is a good thing, surely we all want as many kids as posssbie to have the experience.

It sucks for OP's son, but that's life. We don't all get everything we want - sometimes you just have to accept it.

You can only go on the expedition if you’re doing the volunteering, skills and exercise parts too. It’s much more than a school trip. Doesn’t sound like your son is doing those parts so he wouldn’t qualify for the expedition.

In our school the teachers are not paid and voluntarily give up their time to support dc. They will of course be limited on numbers but dc will have been planning routes etc up to this point. You don’t just rock up for a camp.

It really isn’t an important milestone. That’s ridiculous. MC mothers have decided it’s an important milestone they want for UCAS but it absolutely isn’t.

This! It really is not an advantage for UCAS.. They quite rightly don’t care about lists of random expensive extra curricular activities. It’s more what you’ve done to prepare for the course , how your studies have helped and why you want to do a course. The world and his wife does DofE. If anything OP your son doing relevant voluntary and projects off his own back and not for an award, reading around his subject, overcoming the adversity that is his ND etc will be far more beneficial. The one that did it out of my children never mentioned it and the others that didn’t had far more relevant and better things to put in their statement.

I really feel for you. The school are shite. They should take less if only 5 can’t do it. Ours did it in a club you had to go to before and show commitment. Loads dropped out or weren’t picked because they didn’t show up. Much better way of picking .

Do you know the exact numbers as you have said they take the whole year group, except for a few? That doesn't sound likely in schools I worked in. Usually you end up with about 30 kids from a cohort of 180 who complete the award. It is a lot of admin from the staff perspective and it's not just about going off on outings. The schools I worked in did these on weekends and overlapping school holidays so the students didn't miss lessons so it therefore wouldn't impact who was left in school anyway.
Also the other parts of the award need to be completed by the student themselves e.g. finding a voluntary activity and getting someone to verify that they did it for the duration.
Picking names out of a hat sounds like the best way of managing it if a lot apply, and that could also be why your son's friends all got chosen as their names got picked and his didn't, not that they deliberately didn't choose him.
Can he apply for bronze again next year? As already mentioned he won't be able to just do silver and given priority for this.
Also you could sign your child up to other groups which would increase their friendships outside of school and give opportunities for D of E (my children will be able to do this through scouts if they wanted).

They have explained the process to you tho - they can't take everyone so they select the kids at random. Of course you are disappointed as your son wanted to do it - I get that.

But unfortunately his name wasn't chosen. That's nobody's fault. It's a bit like being angry at the weather....

Staff volunteer massive amounts of their time to run D.of.E, all unpaid. Surely you can't be angry that more staff aren't giving up their time for free & why should they? They have families and lives too.

It's disappointing of course. But just just one of those things.

My school can only offer it to a section of the year group, so kids who want to do it apply, get references from staff, and there is an interview process I believe (I am not personally involved). Perhaps this is fairer than a lottery, but it also takes up time, time which staff are volunteering for free in their lunch times, after school etc. It's not reasonable to demand that the staff at your son's school do this.

Also, why shouldn't the school advertise it on their website - it's true that they offer it. Unless they state on the website that places are available for all kids, they aren't lying.

As I said, I get why you are upset, of course. But anger about this is inappropriate - nobody has done anything wrong.

What do you actually think should happen now? What outcome are you hoping for?

D of E isn’t some fun school trip to doss about on!! It’s an award where they have to do a significant amount of volunteering and learning skills before the expedition. In all honesty it doesn’t sound like you understand what’s involved!
No they absolutely cannot let your DS jump the queue for silver! They need to have completed the bronze award to have learnt and demonstrated the skills to move on.

The school will have limited places based on staffing and kit availability. There is nothing wrong in that. The staff volunteer their time not only to run it, but also themselves to train to run it. Do you have any idea the responsibility and challenges of having 100 odd teenagers navigating across country from a to b?