Angela Raynor still doesnt get it.

Well…they are.

I hope you meant to say British not English.

I'm not advocating Rayner for Leader but I think comments like that are absolutely horrible and snobbish. She connects well with people and she came from a terribly hard background and made something of herself. We should celebrate that. Your comment is nasty.

I agree with you OP.
Matthew Syed wrote an excellent article in the times over the weekend explaining it well for people who may be struggling to grasp.
The sneers about racists are missing the point. Labour is hooked on welfarism. Rayner thinks just get the rich to pay more; shake the money tree again. It won’t fix it and it won’t fix the problems of unfairness where ordinary working people are struggling but see others sitting on their back sides funded by the state.

I think you are completely right. "Stop the boats" is not the same as "zero Immigration"

They need to start listening to the public on immigration and learn how a successful economy should work.

I agree. She basically said we listened but then re stated all the Labour policies people don’t like as the answer. And Manchester is not an exemplar to be called out as a blueprint for the solution. All they glistens here is not gold.

There is a vast difference between anti immigration rhetoric that doesn't actually reduce immigration or deal with the problems and actual policies that address immigration problems but which may not appeal to reform types.

That's not 100% correct. They have done quite a bit but they are not great self publicists like the Tories and Reform.

Well they did try but the backbenchers revolted. And yet it's all Starmer's fault.

Labour lost to both Reform and the Greens. They are not right wing enough for Reform voters and not left wing enough for Green voters.
Personally as a lefty, I don’t want them becoming Reform lite. They can see what is happening as well as everyone else but they weren’t voted in on a platform of stop the boats and cut welfare.
Why did all these up in arms voters not try harder to get the Conservatives elected at the last GE?
If you didn’t want increased welfare why didn’t you turn up in droves to stop the Labour Party winning the election and then doing what Labour do?

As a lifelong tax payers, we have considered emigration in retirement. We probably won't because DH is rubbish at learning languages and UV intolerant thanks to a prescribed medication. But we've often talked seriously about it, and there would be several options.

yeah, fuck your principles and morals and core beliefs. you need to change your pov and party to cater to the anti-muslim, anti-black and self serving of reform voter.

😒

Trotting out the “net migration is falling” line is completely meaningless with the context. Who is leaving? Who is arriving? If net migration falling is driven by skilled, educated people leaving, and the people arriving are unskilled, uneducated or worse, then it’s not good, is it? I’m not saying that is the case, but just citing the numbers is half the picture.

The people voting Reform, as far as I can see, are people who are seeing their standards of living fall, their job security fall, their cost of living rise, their ability to get decent housing on an ordinary wage very difficult. Alongside that, like all of us, they see things not working - basic infrastructure. They’ve seen, in their eyes, governments sit back and do nothing.

Labour needs to effectively and robustly tackle those issues and present some form of coherent, positive narrative or vision to win back those voters. There’s no point in trying to out-Reform Reform on immigration.

Two years ago, Labour won a landslide. I don’t believe that in the last two years, everyone has suddenly become racist (the lazy explanation for the results last week). What has happened is a party have rocked up with a charismatic (love him or hate him) style, who offer a convenient scapegoats (immigrants and “wokery”), and present simplistic solutions to complex problems. It’s hardly surprising the totally disenfranchised voters think you know what, I’ll give them a chance.

And I’m not a Reform voter - I think they’d be a disaster.

Rayner

So you don't care if the potential Prime Minister is corrupt? Did you actually mean to say that?

The thing is, they have done a hell of a lot more about immigration than the conservatives did when Braverman and Jenrick were responsible, so God only knows why anyone thought the answer was to put them back in power. The number of refugees awaiting processing, for example, has gone down massively. By contrast, Reform really has no practical plans that would deal with that whilst keeping essential services running. Really Labour's error lay in part in not making their own achievements clear.

Exactly - so we are losing the people we want to stay here and they are being replaced by illegal immigrants.

If you make unoriginal posts you can expect unoriginal comments. It was a tongue in cheek remark.

interestingly no comment (from you) on his children applying for German passports post Brexit though.

When the country speaks loud and clear, the government in power would be strongly advised to listen.
The biggest problem at the moment is the illegal immigration. We are giving a hero's welcome to undocumented men who have free rein to roam around doing as they please. We dont know who they are and we dont want them here. Its got nothing to do with racism. The legally settled immigrants dont want them here either.
Starmer needs to roll his sleeves up and get it sorted instead of labelling concerned citizens of all ethnicities as far right thugs.
No, we are not far right thugs.
We want our children to be safe

I agree and I am far from being a Nigel supporter. Why do not try to engage rather than say something so childish? May be let us know how is it sustainable to carry on like it is at the moment?

It’s on every thread. Labour aren’t listening, post kicking.