Angela Raynor still doesnt get it.

Labour ARE listening. The problem is that the problem is unsolveable. We don't have enough money to go round and we have a massive, economically inactive population - not because of immigration, but because of retired people. They are by far the biggest drain on the welfare state. Ironically we need immigration because we don't have a large enough working population to support them. No party can square the circle of not enough money coming in via tax or any other means to support an increasingly non-working population.

Reform will not be able to tackle this any more than Labour or the Tories can. And they were the ones who started the 'small boats' in the first place thanks to their idiot leader Farage and the idiotic Brexit project.

For me it’s the welfare reform that I feel is unforgivable. There was talk of reforms and they backed off because of the labour backbenchers making a fuss.

Then they went the other way and lifted the cap on two child benefit for universal credit and I just felt that was unforgivable.

I am here working incredibly hard with one child in two minds as to whether I can afford another child. I probably won’t have another one. But if I was in receipt of universal credit I’d get more money….

I normally vote labour/lib dem depending which constituency I’ve been living in but recently I’ve felt very unsure of who to vote for.

The rose of reform is terrifying. The county I love is in the process of turning into a very nasty divided place. Influenced by such biased reporting like the Mail and GB News.

Read this article and worry.

Meanwhile. Written by someone called Claudia Karl:
🇩🇪 Speaking as a German.
I grew up in a country where every history lesson, every memorial, every awkward family dinner eventually circles back to the same uncomfortable question: how did ordinary, decent people let it happen? How did a respectable European democracy slide, in barely a decade, into something that ended with six million Jewish lives extinguished, millions of others murdered alongside them, and a continent in ruins?
The answers are never simple. But the rhetoric — the rhetoric was never subtle. And it is the rhetoric I want to talk about, because I have heard this song before. 🚩
A certain Austrian gentleman (you know the one) and his party told their country a very specific story. Listen now to what is coming out of Reform UK and Nigel Farage. Not the policies. Not the personalities. Just the language.
⸻

1. "The country is broken. The country has lost itself."

1. "We are being invaded by foreigners."

1. "The establishment has betrayed you."

1. "The country must awaken. We are taking it back."

Sorry but thats complete and utter bollocks.

The definition of fascism is a far right authoritarian regime. The US MAGA regime is arguably there. Reform is trying to follow in its footsteps.

Absolutely this. Pushing Starmer out will give free range to the far left and that is not what people want.

I honestly think the cost of living and making issues harder for small and medium size businesses including farmers and pubs is one of key mistakes of Labour. I think if had been successful in the economy other problems would have fallen away for many.

nope, not anymore. It is a left wing ideology now. No one on the right is suppressing opposition. Quite the opposite in fact.

Why is that so important to you? What objective evidence do you have that immigration is impacting significantly on your welfare and your finances? Why is this topic so hugely offensive to you when multimillion pound companies avoiding tax, for example, isn't? Why are people so hell bent on believing the racist and completely untrue retoric of scum like farage just because they want fewer immigrants? Why is he being allowed air time at all never mind being allowed anywhere near No.10? Why is a single person in the UK so desperate to vote him in when he's proven himself to be nothing but a weasly little liar. He got his way with brexit and nothing has changed for the better. Reform are leading some local councils and they've all either gone bust or the counsillors have left. Why does the country think that other political parties need to pander to this shit to get votes back? Is honest and democratic politics not important to anyone any more?

Oh, and Labour doesn't need to out-Reform Reform.

Local election turnout in England was about 34%.
So Reform got roughly 30% of 34% of the eligible electorate - which is around 10-11% of all eligible voters.

About 89-90% of the people legally able to vote either chose somebody else or stayed home}

I've anecdotally heard Reform voters who've said 'I won't vote for them in a GE, but I wanted to send a message and this was a safer way to do it' - so a chunk of that 10-11% who voted Reform are probably easily gettable.

If Labour get their act together, ideally get Burnham in, or involved in a more meaningful way by Christmas, and implement visible, tangible change in people's lives, they can lead on a platform of patriotism, energy security, prosperity and security without having to do any Reform pandering.

No - fascists are far right.

Reform are fascists.

Sadly, no government is ever going to solve illegal immigration. Reform aren't going to wave a magic wand and it all stops. Its as or more profitable than the illegal drugs trade and no government has been able to stop that either.
I do think people think that reform will be able to just close the gates, but they are deluded.
Short of shooting the boats and drowning the people in them.. which obviosuly is not an option, then its going to continue.
We havent got enough prisons for our own criminals, let alone trying to build camps as a deterrent. And then what about women and children, should they be put into camps etc... its a global problem and almost an impossible one to solve.

I find this odd. The left are the definition of fascists. Think and act how we tell you to and anyone who disagrees needs to be cancelled (or worse according to the placards at left wing demonstrations). Whether you agree or disagree with reform, they aren’t suggesting anyone gets cancelled or ostracised for not supporting them. They are simply making their case and you either like it or you don’t. That’s democracy not racism. I find the ANTIFA group the most ironic of all movements! Literally the opposite of what it says on the tin!

Something needs to change but I don't know whether removing Starmer will be worse - look who is waiting in the wings: Lammy / Rayner. Both of those even more divisive politicians.

They have lost their way and sadly u-turns, taxes and illegal immigration have turned voters against them. They don't seem to be able to read the mood of the country. Whilst the elections last week were local and should have been cast on local issues, I suspect many people voted Reform because they are so fed up and feel let down by the big 2 parties.

I have family in Crowborough where the army migrant camp is housing 600 men and where there was considerable fierce opposition by locals - fell on deaf ears and pushed through by the Home Office. There are local people now patrolling the streets so kids can get to school safely, you now do not walk certain routes, you certainly can't as a lone female walk your dog alone in the forest, and people can't sell their houses. That might sound dramatic to some, but until this is on your doorstep it is hard to understand how awful it is for local residents

Are you joking? Do you not see the daily boatloads of undocumented males arriving on our shores???? Are you happy to have them living in an HMO next to your child’s schools, wandering the streets freely?

How naive are people to not believe the risk of malicious governments sending these infiltrators deliberately to our shores to foment unrest. Like Russia and Iran for instance.
If I were them I’d do it to cause mayhem and instability on the streets and destabilise the country.

Every single illegal migrant needs to be deported back to France from whence they came.

Her statement was actually pretty good - it identified the main issues and named the frustration of people wanting to feel the effects of policy themselves. Competence is fine but without tangible evidence for normal working people it's always going to lose against rhetoric and slogans with simple fixes to complex problems.

If you want immigration to come down, take a look at the graph. Which direction do you see the numbers going?

And benefits - yes, pensions are a huge cost to the state, but the triple-lock is a political grenade so no party wants to touch it.

The biggest problems are around literacy and communication of this stuff. The average person is clueless as to the actual numbers, and the average politician is hopeless at communicating them effectively.

If immigration numbers are falling, that tells one story.

If small towns are quickly receiving large numbers of non-EU migrants, who are unskilled, unsupported, and culturally incompatible with their neighbours, that's a separate story. And it's one that drives a lot of people's voting intention, whether it's first-hand, or third-hand, or based on misinformation from a party with a slicker social media operation and no squeamishness about outright lying to get votes.

So yes - welfare should be discussed. Immigration should be discussed. But it's pointless if people don't 1) use tangible, evidence-based points and 2) listen to the other side and talk to each other like human beings.

I hate Reform and think they are fascists. If Reform get in our country is going the way of the MAGA US fascist regime. It will be horrendous

However I do agree with you OP. Labour doesn't need to move further left it need to move further towards the centre. The proposed changes to welfare eg changing the rules around the winter fuel allowance and keeping the 2 child welfare cap were the right policies and would have helped them to persuade people they were acting in the interests of the country. They also need to be stronger on illegal immigration since the country clearly feels very strongly about illegal immigration.

Moving further left simply means they will lose more votes. The far left already vote left. The centrist left will switch their vote. Unfortunately I don't actually believe a labour government can ever be successful anyway since the hard left back benchers will never let moderate policies through.

Angela Raynor is awful and I'm struggling to understand why her voice is being listened to anyway after she was removed from her position due to her fraudulent misconduct.

Well it’s not capitalist that for sure.

whilst it may not be socialism to the furthest extent, any redistribution of wealth is a socialist policy. We have a capiltalist economy with socialism policies within that. We wouldn’t have the NHS otherwise. It does work with the consent of the people. But the issue with welfare is it does t have the consent of the people in the format it is in now.

People emigrate because of tax and the economy and quality of life. Rarely do people emigrate because of immigrants, People may perceive, rightly or wrongly, that their home/host country has a terrible economy, high taxes, and a collapse of the previous “high trust society” lifestyle because of open borders, but that’s not quite the same thing. Lots of people are perfectly happy to life as an immigrant (or ex-pat - they are different things) or return to their home country or swap out the UK for a different host country if it means they aren’t taxed 40p in the pound plus 20% of practically everything they buy and then have to pay council tax, fuel duty, insurance tax, national insurance etc. on top yet still don’t get that burglary they reported investigated, still have to read about another social service, health service or probation service fuck-up due to underfunding (plus the general societal rot that leads to the pressure on those services) and then burst their tyre on a pothole and can’t afford the train fare to work.
The people emigrating are not necessarily the same “they” as the Brexiteers,
I’m a second gen immigrant- not an emigrant or a brexiteer, but I can totally see why so many people are choosing to take a chance abroad. I like it here but, fuck me, all these stories about migrant crime rates (and crappy light sentences because the poor lambs didn’t know rape is frowned upon followed by inability to deport), unemployment (particularly grad unemployment - particularly nurse/midwife/AHP employment) and the government saying it can’t reform welfare and parents can’t even be expected to give their own kids breakfast anymore is depressing as fuck.

For every 10 voter Labour lose to Reform, they're losing 16 to the Greens.

most of the methods they have stated currently are either not possible or are against the law

Then they will ignore the law - I think that’s what people are hoping. It’s the approach Trump has taken in America.

Sorry but you obviously do not know what socialism is. We live in a capitalist system.
Just because someone is left wing, and supports high regulation, high welfare, that is not socialism.
Please don't let us become like the US where anyone left of centre is 'socialist'. Just like anyone right of centre isn't a fascist.
We need to use words and concepts accurately.
No, I'm not a fan of Raynor's, BTW.

There are plenty of people who want to see anyone who isn't white and English forced out.

That is an extreme view though and not remotely representative of the majority. There are many other extreme views that you can find espoused by ‘plenty of people’ like the Islamist view that we should all be forced to live under sharia law and be coerced into becoming Muslim for example.

It is not at all helpful for people to keep using the views of a tiny minority to discredit the majority.

The majority just want to feel that our borders are under control and that we can reject or deport criminals or immigrants that do not respect us or our country.

Exactly - its inconceivable that she could end up as PM when far better educated people are expected to go through several rounds of interviews and a psychometric test just to land a bar job these days (thanks to Labour policies). The UK cannot afford ideological politics - every policy needs economic scrutiny and ongoing transparency.