Angela Raynor still doesnt get it.

Labour lost most of their votes to the Greens because their policies have been too anti-immigrant. So Reform may have won a seat from Labour by Labour's votes being reduced by the Greens, allowing Reform to have the higher number.... not a transference of Labour to Reform.

The best policy for Labour is to allow Reform to have the people who consider immigration the most important issue and concentrate on dealing with the issues (such as housing and cost of living) that matter to the majority of people.

This rhetoric — Andy Burnham is a saviour who will solve all our problems — do you really think it’s realistic to think he can do this? What do you think he is going to be able to come up with when we have been spending beyond our means for years and now we are stuck servicing that debt as well as a ballooning bill for welfare.

When Reform leadership demanded the BBC sack Gary Lineker for his pretty tame tweets about government policy, was that not 'suggesting anyone gets cancelled or ostracised'?

I know we have got so used to the huge left wing bias of the BBC that it seems quite normalised but have you remembered that as a (spectacularly well paid) employee of the BBC, Gary is supposed to remain impartial?

Calling for someone to be sacked for misconduct in their job is not calling for them to be cancelled or ostracised.

The Urban vs Rural divide seems to be going the same way as USA?

Rural, generally, against more immigration.
Urban, generally, pro more immigration.

And there is no centrist party.

And there cannot be a truly green/ecological party because capitalism relies on infinite growth which relies on infinite human population increases, which now has to come from immigration, but which is bad for nature…

Thank you @Philgooglemail for this thorough post. This is why I am scared of Reform.

I am a bit bipolar when it comes to this. I am all for socialism if it’s actually global. Ie. For everyone. Universal basic income.

What I am not for is the current state of things where all and sundry seem to be topped up but young people trying to build a life on their own two feet are penalised. I am taking small business owners, Ltd company directors, self employed. These are the wealth creators of our future.

So I have decided today that if raynor gets in then I am signing my companies over to someone and will take employee status. I have calculated I can then claim UC, take home the exact same, reduce my outgoings as can claim 90% childcare and boost my pension by 2k a month.

No, in political science, facism is placed on the far right of the political spectrum.

I just read that too. I want to support her as a fellow ex 16 year old mum and ginger but she makes it difficult, a post probably written by ChatGPT and yes the main reason people voted reform is immigration which she doesn’t even mention.

How are they far off the mark? The main markers of fascism include opposition to Marxism, opposition to political and cultural liberalism, conservative economic policies, imperialism and military values. Reform support all of those things.

Many people are also very aware of other methods like widespread visa and asylum fraud.

It’s about our government having a lack of control over who is entering or staying in our country.

It’s a combination of action of many things - the very visible small boat arrivals, combined with the knowledge that the ‘human rights’ lawyers will often successfully scupper the removal of even the most heinous criminals, the vast amounts being spent on all these new arrivals and the avoidable disruption and harm being caused to British people.

And obviously the regular reports of actual terrorists and criminal fugitives entering and a steady stream of rapes, gang rapes and murders by foreign nationals plus electoral fraud by people with anti Western views seeking to subvert our democracy. It all adds up.

When Reform leadership demanded the BBC sack Gary Lineker for his pretty tame tweets about government policy, was that not 'suggesting anyone gets cancelled or ostracised'?

On a more general note. Please look up fascism. Please look up socialism. You need to understand these terms if you're going to use them.

Labour need to recognise they got into power by default. Because the right were divided. Not because particularly the country voted in swathes for their manifesto. Or for the top team.
Angela Raynor is too Marmite to go anywhere near a top job again. Ms Freebie should forget about that.

You are trying to engage on the wrong forum - many people on here either left wing or pretend to be/virtue signalling. I would be thrilled to know how many of them would save up to pay for private school fees for migrant children, for example. (I know, silly question since we have many stepmums on here moaning about private school fees for children from previous marriages). Because at the end of the day most people objections about illegal and legal migration are economic, not racist - I never once read a post saying 'bloody Arabs bought up all Selfridges and Harvey Nicks products again' - people love when wealthy foreigners move in, keep the luxury economy going, send their children to private schools, go private medically - people genuinely don't mind that. It is migrant spongers who get people's heckles up, that is all.
MNers are so good with boundaries - 'tell your MIL to do one', 'tell his children by his first wife to fuck off', boundaries with friends too - 'tell them you are not going halves on this meal, they are cf-ers, trying to sponge off you', shame they don't apply the same logic to other boundaries.

What has that got to do with the UK?

the fact is if you are going around trying to cancel people by calling them Facsists, you are authoritarian yourself, demanding that they vote and think you way or else. That is Fascism in my view. Everyone is allowed to be left, right or centre and we are all allowed our own views on issues without being called names. I am pretty centrist myself, some left wing and right wing views but honestly when I hear the word ‘Fascsm’ being bounded about on threads like this it repels me right to the right. I don’t want to be associated with groups who demand I think and vote a certain way.

I actually disagree. To me, the two big issues are the cost of living and the NHS backlogs.

Kim Jong Un?

Every time Labour loses an election, the reason is always "we're not far enough to the left".

It then takes them a good 15 years to slowly tack back to the centre.

The simple truth is that the voters want a party who will put them first, even if it involves hardship. But with a current deficit of 120bn per year, I think everyone is getting a bit fed up with the country living beyond its means.

Some hard discussions need to come about state pensions and welfare (whoever gets in). It's not that they're super generous, but workers wages don't seem to be protected from inflation in the same way.

I left the Labour Party 30 odd years ago, having been quite active. Mostly because it was always "you must support us, then after the revolution we'll be able to deliver feminism, gay rights, etc". Just too much idealism of big change rather than the pragmatism of continuous small improvements.

If you think fascism is anything to do with the left, then you also need a read through the history books.

Erm - what? Have you seen what Trump is doing in the USA? What was the January 6th Capitol riot if not an attempt by the hard right to suppress opposition?

Literally every dictator alive today is on the right.

That's your only response to my questions are you serious? If you lack any critical thinking about a subject it's probably best not to start a discussion about it.

But they are very few women and children crossing illegally!

I suggest you look up the meaning of fascism and have another think - you’re so far off the mark.

But actual illegal immigration/unauthorised entry - however you want to phrase it - is a tiny proportion of immigration as a whole. It's just that the boats of people arriving or being rescued attract the obvious headlines and can very easily be weaponised as it's so emotive, and presses some people's buttons.