AIBU to think knife is IN FRONT of the fork! (lighthearted, but infuriating)

TheQuickSloth · 2026-05-07T22:54:26+00:00

DS is learning to use a knife and fork properly and we’re trying to teach him how to position the knife when cutting something, so that the knife is on the ‘far side’ of the fork away from him, and not closest to him. Put the fork in, then cut off the bit of food your fork is in so you can eat it. From DS’s point of view: Him - Fork - Knife. Hopefully that’s clear and so far, utterly normal. I’ve attached a diagram to avoid confusion. But at dinner tonight, DS put his knife the other side of the fork, so closer to him than the knife. I explained to move it 'in front' and why that would make it easier, and he said “No, Daddy said the fork should be ^behind^ the knife”. I looked at DH and he said, “Mummy’s right, it needs to be the other side”. “But that’s in front!” DS said looking puzzled. As was I! We breezed past that in the moment, but tonight we were talking and I feel like one of us is going insane. He cannot understand my position, and I cannot understand his at all. DH says the knife is BEHIND the fork. I say the knife is IN FRONT OF the fork. DH’s argument: “If the knife was a panda and the fork was a rock, then from where you are, you’d say the panda was hiding behind the rock. It’s hidden, it’s obscured, it’s behind something else!” But to me it’s in front of the fork because it’s further away. So if the knife and fork were in a race, then the knife would very much be winning. You reach ^past^ the fork and therefore move in front of it. So even though DS agrees (which is good enough for me!), I’d like a more representative judgement. YABU - DH is right, the knife is BEHIND the fork! AKA ‘Shy panda style’ YANBU - I’m right, the knife is obviously IN FRONT of the fork! AKA ‘winning the race style’

lilkitten · 09/05/2026 15:17

I get what you mean, but also what your DS is saying. The front to him maybe means the bit you look at if you just hold it in front of you, the back would be the bit that you lay on the table. If you said "in front" to me I would do what you are suggesting, but I can see why he sees it his way.
Kind of like how the "fast" lane on the motorway to me is what you would call the outside lane as it's the furthest out from the slip road, but others sometimes say it's the inside lane (and I have no idea which way round is correct).

JJMama · 09/05/2026 13:49

You’re either crazy or a bored journo. Either way, wtaf.

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 12:05

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 11:34

OK, fair enough, I’ll rephrase. I agree with DH. The fork is in front of the knife. The item closer when seen from the viewer's physical or imagined perspective or "point of view" is the one in front. (This covers the case of the sword and the shield: the sword is in front because it is being considered from the point of view of the enemy, the thing the enemy would encounter first.)

Edited

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Stop imagining other people’s perspectives 😅
First it was someone seated at the opposite side of the table.
Now it’s ‘the enemy’!

From the perspective of the person holding the sword, the sword is in front if it is farther away from the body. (Likewise, if you put one foot in front of the other you are moving forwards not moving backwards!)

The complication here is that we label things differently if they are on a desk or plate etc. Then the object ‘in front’ is the one closer to your body.

Here the cutlery is being held but also being used on a plate. So the usual labelling systems (in front, behind) clash a bit.

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 11:34

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 11:23

But nobody said that.

DH said the thing farther away from the child (the knife) was behind the fork. It’s on the far side of the fork.

OP didn’t use the word behind at all.

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OK, fair enough, I’ll rephrase. I agree with DH. The fork is in front of the knife. The item closer when seen from the viewer's physical or imagined perspective or "point of view" is the one in front. (This covers the case of the sword and the shield: the sword is in front because it is being considered from the point of view of the enemy, the thing the enemy would encounter first.)

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 11:23

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 10:39

That makes it even less logical to talk about the thing closer to the child to be "behind" the thing farther from the child, then.

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But nobody said that.

DH said the thing farther away from the child (the knife) was behind the fork. It’s on the far side of the fork.

OP didn’t use the word behind at all.

Boxoffrogs21 · 09/05/2026 10:53

Sweetpea232 · 08/05/2026 20:46

I’m not sure why this is so complicated - ‘in front of’ and ‘behind’ are subjective and entirely depend on the viewpoint from which the two objects are being observed.

imagine a cylindrical column in the middle of a field, with a dog sitting a foot away from it and a ring of observers around the column ten feet away. Depending on the point of view of each observer, they may perceive the dog as in front of the column, behind the column, to the left of the column, to the right of the column or a combination of the above. The dog and the column don’t move or change their position relative to each other in any way - what creates the ‘behind’ or the ‘in front of’ is purely the position of the observer and the observers are all correct - there is no ‘right’ answer.

So the starting point is that behind and in front of depend on a point from which the relationship between the objects is observed or measured.

So if you’re instructing someone in the use of a knife and fork, use the preposition of place which will show what the learner will see i.e. place the knife behind the fork. The fact that someone else sees a different spatial layout from their position is irrelevant.

and what the fork or knife are doing is also irrelevant, much like the direction the dog is looking is irrelevant.

I don’t think it is actually this simple.

Complete both of the following tasks assuming the same perspective of the instructor or yourself.
If I’m instructing you in a yoga pose and I say put your right hand in front of your left - where would it be?
Now imagine if my water bottle is on the ground in front of you and I tell you to put your water bottle behind my water bottle - where would you put it?

I think (but maybe I’m wrong!) that in both cases you would have put the object (your right hand or the water bottle) further away from your body despite being given the opposite preposition in the instruction.

The question, I think, is whether you view the knife and fork as ‘part of you’ because you’re holding them or separate objects.

NotEnoughRoom · 09/05/2026 10:42

I think we need to do this “Ghostbusters” style - do not cross the streams!
whichever hand you hold your knife and fork in is irrelevant - you don’t cross them over when you cut!

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 10:39

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 10:35

Nobody is sitting opposite 😅

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That makes it even less logical to talk about the thing closer to the child to be "behind" the thing farther from the child, then.

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 10:35

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 09:51

Sorry, but I'm going to keep arguing my case!

I don’t agree with @Tooearlyjigsaw 's analysis. I don’t think the difference is between the person holding the items and their positions on the plate; it’s all about the perspective of whoever is looking at them. To the person holding the cutlery, the fork is in front of the knife because it is nearer them and their eyes; to someone sitting opposite them the knife would be nearer them and their eyes so would be the one "in front". (If I were talking to a child, though, I would use the language that tallied with their viewpoint.)

Regardless of whether items are being held or resting on a surface, we would never say something was "hidden in front" of something else; it would always be "hidden behind", because the line of sight from the hidden thing to our eyes is interrupted by the object in front of it.

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Nobody is sitting opposite 😅

BeaLola · 09/05/2026 10:29

you lost me at panda

Theonebutnotonly · 09/05/2026 09:51

TheQuickSloth · 09/05/2026 09:23

Ah yes, this sums it up really nicely: "It depends on whether you’re describing the position of the cutlery relative to the person holding them, or relative to their positions on the plate. And here they are being held, and have a position on a plate, simultaneously."

And thanks for stepping in to confirm that we're not entirely mad in this house and didn't realise we were simply looking at things from different sides of the table 🤣

That was the point of the diagram - it's the language we use to describe what you're seeing from that exact perspective, when looking at your own knife and fork!

I agree my race analogy wasn't quite right but was just trying to find a useful analogy to explain things. A queue with me at the back would have been a bit better.

Thanks for all the input everyone - lots to argue over think about!

Show quote history

Sorry, but I'm going to keep arguing my case!

I don’t agree with @Tooearlyjigsaw 's analysis. I don’t think the difference is between the person holding the items and their positions on the plate; it’s all about the perspective of whoever is looking at them. To the person holding the cutlery, the fork is in front of the knife because it is nearer them and their eyes; to someone sitting opposite them the knife would be nearer them and their eyes so would be the one "in front". (If I were talking to a child, though, I would use the language that tallied with their viewpoint.)

Regardless of whether items are being held or resting on a surface, we would never say something was "hidden in front" of something else; it would always be "hidden behind", because the line of sight from the hidden thing to our eyes is interrupted by the object in front of it.

Original poster

TheQuickSloth · 09/05/2026 09:23

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 09:03

I think it’s confusing because two different things are happening at the same time and we usually name them differently.

It we’re talking about hands and, say, instruct someone to position their hands with one in front of the other, the one ‘in front’ will be the one slightly further away from the body. Same with feet. As a pp said, if we tell someone to stand holding a sword in front of a shield, then the sword is further from the body. So that’s OP’s way of looking at this cutlery situation.

However, with objects on a plate, we don’t describe them like that. If we’re looking at a knife and fork lying horizontally on a plate, then the one further away from us is now not in front, and would never be described as such. It’s behind. That’s its position on the plate. The one closest to us is in front.
And that’s OP’s DH’s way of looking at things.
(Similarly, if I’m working with my computer at my desk…the keyboard is in front and the screen behind…that’s their positions on the desk.)

In this case the knife and fork are both being held, and on a plate. If you’re describing them relative to the person holding them, it makes sense to say the knife is in front. However, if you’re describing them relative to their positions on the plate, it makes no sense to say that. The knife is now behind.

That’s why it’s confusing. It depends on whether you’re describing the position of the cutlery relative to the person holding them, or relative to their positions on the plate. And here they are being held, and have a position on a plate, simultaneously.

(As an aside, I don’t think OP’s analogy of the knife and fork being in a race helps either, because you then have to assume a direction of travel when there is none. If you think they’re running away from you, you get the answer she wants, but if they’re running towards you, you do not. So it’s not helpful.)

Edited

Ah yes, this sums it up really nicely: "It depends on whether you’re describing the position of the cutlery relative to the person holding them, or relative to their positions on the plate. And here they are being held, and have a position on a plate, simultaneously."

And thanks for stepping in to confirm that we're not entirely mad in this house and didn't realise we were simply looking at things from different sides of the table 🤣

That was the point of the diagram - it's the language we use to describe what you're seeing from that exact perspective, when looking at your own knife and fork!

I agree my race analogy wasn't quite right but was just trying to find a useful analogy to explain things. A queue with me at the back would have been a bit better.

Thanks for all the input everyone - lots to argue over think about!

OP posts:

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 09:03

I think it’s confusing because two different things are happening at the same time and we usually name them differently.

It we’re talking about hands and, say, instruct someone to position their hands with one in front of the other, the one ‘in front’ will be the one slightly further away from the body. Same with feet. As a pp said, if we tell someone to stand holding a sword in front of a shield, then the sword is further from the body. So that’s OP’s way of looking at this cutlery situation.

However, with objects on a plate, we don’t describe them like that. If we’re looking at a knife and fork lying horizontally on a plate, then the one further away from us is now not in front, and would never be described as such. It’s behind. That’s its position on the plate. The one closest to us is in front.
And that’s OP’s DH’s way of looking at things.
(Similarly, if I’m working with my computer at my desk…the keyboard is in front and the screen behind…that’s their positions on the desk.)

In this case the knife and fork are both being held, and on a plate. If you’re describing them relative to the person holding them, it makes sense to say the knife is in front. However, if you’re describing them relative to their positions on the plate, it makes no sense to say that. The knife is now behind.

That’s why it’s confusing. It depends on whether you’re describing the position of the cutlery relative to the person holding them, or relative to their positions on the plate. And here they are being held, and have a position on a plate, simultaneously.

(As an aside, I don’t think OP’s analogy of the knife and fork being in a race helps either, because you then have to assume a direction of travel when there is none. If you think they’re running away from you, you get the answer she wants, but if they’re running towards you, you do not. So it’s not helpful.)

Tooearlyjigsaw · 09/05/2026 08:31

Waitingfordoggo · 09/05/2026 00:32

Well it entirely depends on where you are seeing the knife and fork from, doesn’t it? Like asking ‘Which side of the bed do you sleep on?’ Left or right depends on whether you are in/on the bed or standing at the foot of the bed looking at it.

I think they are looking at the knife and fork from the same position. That’s not the issue.

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 09/05/2026 06:40

The convex part of the fork is called "the back" of the fork. Therefore the knife must be placed BEHIND it. Bangs gavel.

ClaredeBear · 09/05/2026 06:26

It’s in front. Or not at all in my case. I only use a fork.

likelysuspect · 09/05/2026 06:21

TwoHoots74 · 08/05/2026 23:16

I’m right handed but have the fork in my left. Which for you is the work of the devil

Im right handed and have always eaten with my fork in my right hand.

NoSleepNight · 09/05/2026 06:18

They let me use fat pencils to write with when I was a little kid. I loved my fat pencils.

likelysuspect · 09/05/2026 06:16

CypressGrove · 08/05/2026 22:58

It's behind the fork. Struggling to understand how you could think its in front? Do you think your computer screen is in front of your keyboard or behind it?

It entirely depends on what direction you're talking about and what you consider forward to be.

Odditea · 09/05/2026 00:51

You’re just looking from different directions. I’d say on the other side

ScrambledTofuNeedsKalaNamak · 09/05/2026 00:39

Waitingfordoggo · 09/05/2026 00:32

Well it entirely depends on where you are seeing the knife and fork from, doesn’t it? Like asking ‘Which side of the bed do you sleep on?’ Left or right depends on whether you are in/on the bed or standing at the foot of the bed looking at it.

This is true, however, I looked at the original picture and it is exactly how I would eat with a knife and fork, and I'd say that the knife was behind the fork.

I sleep on the right side of the bed when looking at it, but when I'm in it I'm definitely on the left side...I think 🤣

Waitingfordoggo · 09/05/2026 00:32

Well it entirely depends on where you are seeing the knife and fork from, doesn’t it? Like asking ‘Which side of the bed do you sleep on?’ Left or right depends on whether you are in/on the bed or standing at the foot of the bed looking at it.

ScrambledTofuNeedsKalaNamak · 09/05/2026 00:27

CypressGrove · 09/05/2026 00:13

Really? You say your keyboard is behind your screen? I'm so confused.

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Yeah. I'm getting myself confused here too 🤣. If DH said to me that your parcel has been delivered and it is behind the shed, I certainly wouldn't be looking at the front of the shed. A computer screen is definitely behind the keyboard. Just like the knife is behind the fork in this picture.

If we are talking about travelling, I think that is different and that is what frazzled my brain. I'm with the OP's DH on this.

CypressGrove · 09/05/2026 00:13

ScouserSue · 09/05/2026 00:05

In front!

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Really? You say your keyboard is behind your screen? I'm so confused.

ScouserSue · 09/05/2026 00:05

CypressGrove · 08/05/2026 22:58

It's behind the fork. Struggling to understand how you could think its in front? Do you think your computer screen is in front of your keyboard or behind it?

In front!