parkrun defending their position

Oh, Fair. What a moving post. It speaks volumes, especially in the context in which it sits. I'm so sorry for all of it - and congrats, like to Millie, on your amazing running achievements.

I will post this, as I have posted about it before, but not specifically linked to the gender discussion.

3 years ago (almost exactly) my 3 year old DS ran away from me in the supermarket. And I could not catch him. A 3 year old could run faster than I, a grown woman could. A kindly stranger had to help me.

I was 17 stone, size 22/24, and hadn't willingly done any exercise since school.
Part of this was due to the constant and unwanted sexual comments, assult and abuse I had suffered since I was 11, from boys and men. When I was thin, blond and young, the male sex were horrific to me. When I was fat, they just didn't see me.

However, three years ago, I vowed that something had to change. I was prediabetic, and honestly, how could a 3 year old out-run me?

The next day (Coronation Day), I went out incredibly early so no-one could see me and did the first of the Couch 2 5K runs. It very nearly killed me. I could hardly do the 1 min runs, and I had a massive nosebleed.

But, this mattered. I did it for my children. I carried on. Always early, always on my own. I didn't even tell my DH, as I was ashamed of how badly unfit I was.

By 2 years ago, I did my first public 5k, and then 10k race. Last year, I ran my first half marathon. This year, I did my local half marsthon, raising money for my DC's school. It has been hard work, a struggle against my own demons AND how I've been publicly perceived. I've had foul comments shouted at me from passing cars/vans (always males). I've had water and bottles thrown at me, as a solo female runner.

Why does this matter? Because I started running Park Runs, and then was made aware that my ranking was not accurate. The local course record was never going to be obtainable by me, because it was held by a trans identifying male. I can NEVER challenge that record. I have wide hips, so big Q angles. I run best at a lope (as many females do). I have birth injuries.

Why do I not deserve to be able to see my own rank, accurately, when my DH does?

I have stopped doing PR. We have taken the DC out of Junior PR. We run weekly with the DC at a free local run that has no timing (bar our own watches), no categories and encourages the DC to be the best they can be WITHOUT lying that sex doesn't matter.

Running has, quite literally, changed my life. Why should I, as a woman, not be able to celebrate my achievements, because some men want to muscle in on my category?

Exactly! Except you'll probably get "The Rules" trotted out to you in response to that like I did upthread.
"It's not us! Oh and if it is, your behaviour made us do it." 🙄

At the end of the day it's Park Run's event, and it's what they want for it that matters.

And….this thread has become an echo chamber like all GC threads always do, thanks to the usual rude, patronising, ad hominem posts from women who think they’re defending women’s rights despite ganging up on any woman who even mildly disagrees with them until everyone gives up and leaves them to it. What a win for feminism if Parkrun gets shut down and women can’t participate any more.

Despite the vocal posters adamantly refusing to acknowledge logic, 87% of voters agree that you are not being unreasonable.

You're not making less sense at all.

The trans man pushing back all males behind them is really thought-provoking. It had honestly never occurred, and while I at first wanted to excuse myself a bit based on the law of probabilities (it seriously must be very very very unusual)... I then realised that that exposes my own bias, as that's exactly the same argument used against women having single-sex sports upthread!

So, after reflection, I'll say instead that yes, if that's happened / does happen / will happen, it's just as much of an issue. Rules and fairness and sports categories are nothing without consistency.

Which means male, female and open is out best solution, I guess?

Gah!

The really annoying thing is... it's worryingly easy to think that we've put more a bit more thought into it all in just this thread than the whole of PR did before their decision!

Happy running (and yes, perhaps cautious running for me sometime in the hazy future).

Definitely not disagreeing that anyone who has been through male puberty will have a differently developed body, more lung capacity etc and therefore biological advantage. I think some is mitigated by horomones, but not all, and that’s assuming hormones are being taken/the duration of time etc.

Anyway, i think my point was much more that even if a trans man finished in say position 200/400 with a time of 29.30 which is fairly mid field, there will be a whole cohort of men who’s position is also ‘pushed back’ by the trans man, just the same as it is for women participants when a trans woman finishes in a similar position and time. I would also suppose that this would be the most likely scenario with trans participants (certainly at my parkrun for ‘non passing’ trans runners) - they’re just everyday runners/walkers not top of the pack.

I think I’m making less and less sense the more tired I get! Thanks for sharing info, I like to be well informed (even if I don’t always agree with everything).

Hope you’re able to continue to walk or maybe even get back to a run at some point ☺️

Sorry, Millie. Your posts are so thoughtful and empathetic, I'm probably preaching to the choir with a lot of this. I just like explaining things really clearly "on the record" sometimes, and a lot of seriously silly comments can set me off!

You say your posts are rambly (they're really not, btw)? Well, mine are loooong - and sometimes a bit preachy. I honestly never mean them to be, they just come out that way because I've thought about it a lot and care very deeply. I'm just so keen to get these arguments out there as they're so brutally misrepresented and misunderstood by so many.

It can be a bit self-defeating sometimes, though (like, back away from the keyboard now, Catiette!) So, apologies. I'll shut up now. 😅

Just to follow up on this...

I've just reread your post and noticed that you do acknowledge that it's the very good women reaching top ten precisely because PR's "inclusive". Yes!

There's always been this maddeningly silly argument that because eg. Laurel Hubbard (TW weightlifter - you probably know) didn't win in the Olympics, or Lia Thomas (TW swimmer, again, sorry if you know) didn't always win or nearly win in the swimming, there's no sex-based advantage. It's embarrassingly disingenuous. Yes, a woman who's outstanding in her field can indeed beat a mediocre man (Lia Thomas was something like below 500th in the men's equivalent competition, before magically appearing in the top 10 or so in the women's).

But that's not fair competition.

We have sporting categories in order to eliminate or minimise, as far as is realistically possible, all disproportionate distorting patterns of variables, so as to leave the competitors competing on the basis of skill alone. Otherwise, results are just skewed, and talent neither rewarded nor recognised. And the single most enormously significant variable is sex. I mean, Michael Phelp's hands (or whatever the other favourite stupid argument against sex-segregated sports is) just don't even figure - they're a significant but far from unique natural variation within a recognised category, say 3% bigger than the norm. Huge, yes, but proportionately to that, the equivalent male-female difference is something like 100%*.

*Disclaimer: figures totally impressionistic to make my point! BUT someone actually has done the maths on this one, and it's pretty stunning (like, it could even have been something like the difference is 0.1% versus 98%. Can't beging to remember, but it'd take me ages to find it.

That's a really good point about the mix of genders you'll see finishing at the top, although I'm in no doubt men will still vastly predominate. However, I'd suggest that this isn't a representative or even necessarily meaningful data pool.

Parkrun - as this thread shows - invites the full range of runners, from my pathetic half-jog to the semi-professional or even professional, with a full spectrum of amateur training and skill levels between.

A woman who's dedicated to and good at running can indeed beat a man who's not in nearly as good condition. But even then, the difference between their relative fitness/training/skill levels needs to be pretty damn substantial.

So, yes, given the wide demographic and large numbers making up Parkrun, you absolutely will encounter the scenario you describe.

There's not the same level of debate about trans men, though, precisely because that scenario requires a fairly particular context and make-up of participants (in Parkrun, the large proportion of casual participants, within which, proportionately speaking, a minority of damn good women will inevitably have the opportunity to rise to the top). In this sense, it's a bit of an outlier in sport - certainly in meaningfully competitive sport.

Meanwhile, I'm honestly still not convinced that a trans man's physical makeup would create that much more of an advantage than a woman has. In a tiny minority, with a natural physiological advantage and some hardcore training, yes - the vanishingly rare tall, muscly transman used in arguments against same-sex spaces). But I think it's pretty significant we have little/no evidence on suggesting this is happening or likely to happen - and it's particularly interesting how different that lack of evidence is to my link above re. transwomen winnning in women's sports.

You may want to have a look at this website, too. It shows the sheer extent of male physical advantage, by tracking how high-school boys compare to elite female athletes. The difference is built in from very early on (I think studies show some meaningful difference even in younger primary students) - and it's eye-opening.

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Thank you, I know my posts are quite rambly as I find it hard to gather my thoughts on this topic!

My comment RE trans men was anecdotal, it’s just something i never hear. In the case of parkrun it will be the case - if you take any parkrun finisher list and look at gender finish positions (assume everyone is their biological gender), we can see at parkrun women are finishing in at least the top 10 further down the positions the distribution becomes more equal as parkrun is so inclusive. If we were to assume that any one of those women were to then actually move and ID as trans man - they’d be beating lots of men. I think it’s fair to assume around the country there might be trans men finishing ahead of a lot of male participants and it just doesn’t seem controversial.

I was one of the totally bemused who found @WorstPaceScenario's chip explanation really helpful - thanks. And I love your username (been wanting to say for pages)!

I think that was entirely the point @WorstPaceScenariowas making. The timing is approximated, not exact. Someone asked what a chip was and they explained.

I don’t even understand how a conversation about gender categories became a debate about whether parkrun should be a timed event or not!

I loved it when I did it. I went in a matter of astonished weeks from the person who looks at runners and thinks, "Poor things! Thank goodness I'm not mad enough to put myself through that!" to the (very very bad!) runner who looks at non-runners and thinks "Poor things! They've no idea what they're missing!" But I'm relegated to walking only now, probably for life I suspect. 😔

Good luck in your next run!

If it does it’s based on personal times. Not where you came in relation to others running.

Yeah, it's a really difficult question (and SO good to read your posts after nearly 30 pages of accusations of hatred and whining and assertions that, "It's all very simple, Parkrun is what I say it is!")

Totally agree with much of the above, especially the last paragraph. I don't particularly see an issue with the open category being outing. Most people posting here in favour of trans inclusion in the women's category are 1) adamant that people with my view are vastly in the minority and 2) that comparing their times don't matter anyway. The people who feel this way can all run in the open category, meaning it's not outing. Those who feel strongly and want comparable times can run in the female. That would also be a more democratic way of canvassing what women do actually want!

I do think it's a pity that PR made that initial assumption that women would be perfectly happy to give up their sex-based category. A more democratic approach would have been infinitely better, and their ongoing resistance to being open about the issue is another of my concerns. Rather ironically, all of this has led to more consternation and inadvertent spotlighting of trans individuals than a more considered integration of them may have. I also find it ironic - and telling - that women are the ones being blamed for asking for our stuff back!

Fascinated by your claim about trans men beating men. I didn't think testosterone or surgery could change their massively different skeletal structure and other key aspects of male physical advantage that much, to be honest. I'd be interested to see any data on this if you could share it. Here's my fave resource on transwomen, in turn (be prepared for a LOT of scrolling!): www.shewon.org/.

Which is not the Park Run model.

They don’t need to and people don’t need to respond. It’s for those who want it.

That’s fine. You don’t have to be. It’s completely optional.

Thank you ☺️ I actually don’t enjoy running that fast so don’t do it very often! Every now and then I like to just check to see whether I still can! I’d much rather have a chat on the way round/take photos/stop to see dogs/ do anything other than actually run.

Volunteers don’t have a stopwatch. Why are you committing on an event you have never partaken in?

Which events?

An ordinary watch does not time runs.

Why do you want thousands of people who participate in a weekly fun run to lose the timing ability? What impact is it you?

Appreciate this is just my take on it, I just can’t get that worked up about parkrun, but would feel more inclined to be frustrated about events where competition exists much more inter-person. And while I’m indifferent, some women will feel they don’t get an equal opportunity and discriminated against, as I’m sure some trans women will also feel. I do always find it interesting that there is zero discourse about trans men - who are definitely out there beating some men!

I guess the best stance for parkrun is to remove gender categories, or to offer open, NB and female, although I would assume that would also be difficult for a trans women as it is also outing to be in the open category? I don’t know, out loud thoughts. I love parkrun because it’s inclusive and welcoming and I would love there to be a way that it continued to be everything for everyone, despite the vast differences in views.