parkrun defending their position

What is wrong with trans identifying men picking male, or other, or prefer not to say? What?

I think the best thing would be for everyone to be dumped into a new ‘not stated’ category and you could pick to declare yourself non-competitive or competitive but if you choose competitive you have to be honest.

I appreciate I'm in the minority, but I care where I come in relation to my own previous times. I run to try and beat my previous times where I can. But ultimately I run for my own fitness, my own mental health and that I much prefer running with other people than on my own.

It's always different as it depends where you run, the conditions on the day (wind/rain/ice etc.) and how many other people are running at the same parkrun as you. I'm sorry but I don't care about my overall race position.

This is a deeply emotive subject, but I don't want to see parkrun implode over it. I don't know what the solution is that works for everyone. I genuinely don't think there is one.

That's why I find the accusations of "hate" and "tantrums" pretty despicable (at least as long as they're not directed at actual evidence of this... which they're so often not).

I can see there's a debate to be had here, even if I come down very strongly indeed on one side of it.

But those posters who deny even this, and seek to silence other voices in this way?

Well, it's genuinely what first convinced me I'm on the sex-based rights "side" (I mean, I'd be on the trans rights side, too, if there weren't a conflict and I'd not felt forced to choose 😔).

Parkrun did something a few years ago about this like wiping all records and the men in my running club were up in arms. ‘How could parkrun do this???? What the HELL were they thinking???’ Bloody women, having a whinge because they got beaten by a man in a wig????’ While paying no heed to the female clubmates that have no reliably valid records to refer to themselves. It was so eye opening how selfish some blokes are. Don’t give a shit about men taking things from women but when they’re affected the shit hits the fan!

So acvording to some people, it would be fine if Sebastian Sawe registered as a 12yo girl and completely smashed all the recirds, as its just a bit as fun and anyone can say they are who they want to be?

Be kind, let the men take all of your sporting achievements.
Be kind, let the men take jobs.
Be kind, let the man into your changing room and watch you undress.
Be kind, let the men into your domestic abuse refuge.
Be kind, let the man have sex with you.
Be kind, let the man strangle you.

Where does being kind to men end? When do women get to say no? Parkrun may just be a very small thing, but women should have the right to say no. Parkrun should pick a Saturday to question each and every real women that finishes as to whether transwomen should be in the female category and respect their views. Women shouldn’t always have to give up their rights to men, and it’s an exceedingly dangerous message to tell our daughter that they should.

I care where I come in relation to other women, and I want to be sure they are actually biological women or it's meaningless.

Most women in my club care, and will be chuffed if they are first few in or top in age category.

The argument it's only a few men so what's the issue is a joke and it's not just about records either. 1 man takes any place he shouldn't and all the subsequent women are bumped down. 2 do and they are bumped down again from wherever he came in. This could easily be a couple of hundred women at one run negatively affected by the actions of 1 selfish man, and 1 woman losing out is too many.

I've volunteered at the end and they tie themselves in knots making sure they click in every runner and then give them the right number token - they come and do spot check as they are given out. And yet they make it a farce by allowing men in women's categories.

I would say, also, when someone breaks a course record they tend to take a photo of them and stick it on social media - you are not telling me they can't tell at that point whether they are looking at and talking to a women.

Cross-posted. Basically... hard agree!

Yes - that too. All of it.

It feels cut and dried to me. Only a matter of time.

I do want trans runners to be accommodated too - but this shouldn't be at the expense of women (by which I mean the old-fashioned kind, from the good old days when we had a word of our own to make arguments for sex-based rights, that is).

Could you explain more fully?

Aha - sorry, Funtime. I kind of see what you're saying there. If I've understood correctly, yes, that's exactly it. And that's why I think we'll win this one. Men and women currently have a different experience of Park Run, with the men's experience clearly superior (more data, more satisfaction, AND a wider range of reasons for participating, from the don't-care-cos-it's-not-a-race-bods to the more competitive male participants are all catered for).

It feels quite clearly like discrimination on the basis of sex.

The coming court case, if they don't make changes soon (dunno if that's been mentioned upthread, but one's on the cards at last) looks promising for this.

A bit confused.

You seem to be suggesting that any runner could easily find out and publish the fastest time achieved in their run, to see how far behind the best female/male etc. they were (if, of course, we imagine we're discussing the kind of Parkrun I'm arguing for, where you can gauge your achievements meaningfully in the context of your sex)?

Or alternatively that no data should be published by Parkrun?

We could start with a healthy discussion on the dangers of forcing people to validate the delusions of others in the name of 'kindness'.

Park run are under no obligation to publish data. Anybody can do it themselves.

Heck, I'd not realised! Well, that's a bit embarrassing.

Alternatively...

1. Look up satire and bathos (seriously, though, do look up bathos - cool term more people should know 😃).

and

2. Consider the point I was making - and my consequent confidence that we'll get there with the smaller scale stuff, too, eventually: my Park Running colleagues are just as deserving of being able to gauge their running progress and success in the context of meaningful data from a cohesive demographic as Paula Radcliffe is.

(And then maybe rethink where the embarrassment really is).

Key point you seem to have forgot- the Olympics is a major competition, Park Run isn’t.

I'm sure Funtime will go away to reflect on their newfound realisation that a post on MN won't change an international org's policy.

They may, though, conclude that the voting proportion you deride, on such a well-known website, is likely to be clocked by someone in a massive org, and that these little drops can add up to persuasive grounds for change over time.

There's also the consolation that posters who are on the fence reading threads like this can weight up the arguments on either side, see the dismissal of sound rationale on a complex issue as "tantrums" and realise the paucity of the arguments against our position.

Another drop... and another... and another.

We can see its impact in real-time: today, the Olympics, tomorrow... er... PARK RUN!!! 💪😅

What's sad is how brutal this backlash must be for a community who would have been far better supported and protected had the claims for their rights been built on a more solid foundation than the bizarre accusations of "hatred" and "tantrums" we so often see here... 😔

🤣🤣🤣🤣Still in denial. Park run call the shots and have made their views clear. A little MN tantrum isn’t going to get your way.

"It's not competitive" say all the park run promoters...
so... who cares what category people run in ... :-)

Guess what- the views of a few tedious MN posters that turn up on any thread with even a whiff of a chance for anti trans rhetoric do not make something correct.

And 2+2 = 5.

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’"