to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

I also see a lot of dads that both expect their partners to bring home money to pay the bills and to be treated like breadwinners in terms of never having to do things like bedtimes.

If anything I hear more about dad's equally splitting loads on here than I see in real life.

My take is that back when there were traditional 1950s house wives there was also respect. My grandfather truly respected my grandmother as head of the household and the money he earned was family money. Now men want equal income into the household but women to also run the household. Then they’re confused when the woman loses her shit.

not all men - I work full time and dh does his share as an equal partner but others seem to think I should be grateful he “helps me” so much.

Fatherhood may be more demanding, but then most men aren’t “bring home the bacon” in the same way as their fathers.

Men are expected now to do more than their fathers because they can’t afford to support a stay at home mother as they did.

I think most men don't want children.
They just want fuck.

It needs to become way more socially unacceptable to do this. Men need to be shunned and excluded and talked about the way women would be if they upped and left. Sometimes shaming is useful!

There also should be legal penalties for not paying maintenance.

Neither of us were particularly keen to have children. I was less keen than my husband. But we weren’t brave enough to not have them because of the fear of regretting it when we were in our 40s and too old.

Anyway, we had them, we liked them and didn’t want to send them back. My husband is the best most devoted, supportive and all round perfect dad in the world. Well, our children and I think so, anyway. I tell them often how very lucky they are.

I ageee OP. This isn’t an unpopular or rare opinion, it’s often said men want kids like kids want puppies. It’s definitely not just a mumsnet thing.

A lot of men are jumping on the bangwagon and doing the tickbox of what society expects. Don’t get me wrong many women have kids for those reasons too, but the difference is in most cases the mums will stick with parenting regardless and at least do the bare minimum of being in their child’s life every day.

Unlike many men who decide to leave and see their kids EOW or stay in the relationship and leave most of the childcare to their partners even when they’re both working.

There’s a reason why the phrase “ parent is babysitting” is more commonly applied to Dads than Mums.

I respect men who are smart enough not to chime in with that “ I want a legacy via a child” crap and actually think hard about if they really want a kid, and why and if they would be a good father.

Some people meet men at 50 with no kids or ex and think that’s weird, personally I think good on them. It clearly wasn’t for them.

Better that than being a shit father and shit husband just so you can have “father and husband” engraved on your headstone.

Absolutely. There are exceptions but the majority of men have children because their wife/partner wants them or they just feel it’s expected of them.

Its something we as a society rarely acknowledge to ourselves. Most men can take or leave children. They may ultimately come to feel grateful for having them but fundamentally they aren’t motivated to have them.

I think the other factor is that society’s definition of a father has changed. For my father’s generation you were expected to provide financial support and stick around and that was about it.

Fatherhood today is much more demanding (as it should be). A lot of men who are middle aged now observed their fathers as fairly hands-off figures who brought home the bacon but did little else and they lack the mental and emotional roadmap to deliver what their partners need and feel resentful that they are expected to go much further than their own fathers did.

There’s 5 types of men when it comes to this issue.

1. the ones who genuinely want to be a father and put effort into parenting and raising their kids.
2. the ones who want kids but don’t want to do any of the actual parenting so leave it all to the mother and get shitty if they’re asked to step up. These will give up and leave if they don’t get their way.
3. the ones who are completely indifferent and just go along with it, then instantly regret it when they realise how much work, lifestyle changes and sacrifice it involves. They often just allow themselves to get persuaded or railroaded into it by the mother. These will also end up leaving if the mother doesn’t do all the parenting because they “can’t cope”.
4. The ones that don’t want kids, but can’t be arsed to ensure that doesn’t happen. These are feckless twats who will end up with multiple kids they never see or pay for.
5. the ones who don’t want kids and are sensible enough to manage that properly.

1 and 5 are tiny minorities of men. Most men are in 2, 3 or 4.

And of course there are women who believed they wanted children until they had them, then realised they didn’t.

I always think the best way to actually find out the answer is, if you have children, to ask your husbands/partners whether they'd have stayed with you had you been child-free - or if that would've been a deal-breaker, in the same way that a man who said he didn't want children would've been a deal-breaker for you.

Women have to know it and say it. I know many women who changed their minds, never felt ready and/or stopped at the threshold. Difference is that despite all of that, they had to commit one way or the other anyway. One of my friends told me when she was 35 that she actively didn't want kids at that stage of her life - but she knew she wanted them eventually, so she had to get on with it. If she was a man she would've happily had another half-decade, if not more, of being child-free. I also have another friend who never really made up her mind either way. She's 45 now and her body has made its mind up for her (she has no regrets, but her decision to be child-free was a passive one rather than an active thing she pursued). If she was a man she would still have options (and she says if she was a man she'd still be on the fence!).

I disagree and it’s one of the stories we tell ourselves to excuse men for not stepping up. I manage to help out people whose children aren’t mine. I manage to care for my pets even though I didn’t give birth to them.

I didn’t even bond that brilliantly early on with my first, partly I think because I was so very tired and didn’t get any help whatsoever. But I still managed to get up several times every night to feed and change him, see to all his needs, do all the stuff in the house, cook all the meals, do all the shopping etc. Because I knew it had to be done, not because I had some sacred woman gene. I didn’t expect him to do 50% or anywhere near; but not to ever give me a lie in or do the bedtime routine or do the overnight shift - not genetics, just laziness and entitlement.

My STBXH didn’t help not because he couldn’t be helpful or because my son wouldn’t go to him. He didn’t help because he wanted to live the single life while getting all the benefits of being married. He loves the boys now and wants to spend a lot of time with them because they’re adults and can look after themselves. But he didn’t make them nice, polite young men, didn’t teach them to swim or play tennis, didn’t take them to golf lessons (although he loves to play with them now), didn’t teach them to ride their bikes or cook for themselves, even though he had done all those things in his childhood.

If we keep putting things down to nature rather than nurture and societal expectations then we’ll still have men saying that’s why they have affairs, don’t do their fair share at home, complain about being lonely when they don’t do anything to change that.

And if my sons ever treat their wives like that then I’ll be having a stern word.

I think the difference is women know it and say it, whereas there seem to be more men that change their minds, are never ready, or stop at the threshold. I’d say from my circle (and again it might just be where I have gravitated to) more women in my life have had their worlds upended by men moving the goal posts than the reverse.

I actually know far more women who don't, and have never, wanted children - though as a child-free woman myself I've naturally gravitated more towards this kind of social circle. Insisting that the desire for children is fundamentally down to your sex once again erases the lived experiences of child-free women (and I suppose men who actively want to be parents).

Of the parents I've talked to in depth about this, I know one father who says he would have been equally content if his wife hadn't wanted children, but is also fairly happy that she did. I also know one mother who says her husband was the driving force behind having kids while she was ambivalent, and even now he does the bulk of the heavy lifting. But in general, before any of my friends had kids, I saw a lot of ambivalence and uncertainty over parenthood, from the women as well as the men. The difference is that the women had to make a definitive decision much earlier than the men rather than because they had a stronger inherent desire.

When I was dating - albeit in my 20s, so before any of my peers were thinking about kids at all - I met a couple of men for whom my being child-free was a deal-breaker. They were in the minority though.

Stand and greet him? Like Captain Von Trapp?

I think that these types of men have always existed but between the benign neglect, parentified older daughters, downtrodden wives and extended family women providing support it wasn't the same problem it is now.

I think being the one who is pregnant with a child makes quite a difference. Biology has a part to play. My DH had an instant love for our children and is a great dad but he didn't have that deep distress, conflict and guilt that I felt when I had to go back to work and leave them. Presumably that is nature doing it's thing. If mothers left their babies, the babies would die. I read somewhere that human babies are born earlier in their development than some other species (due to head vs pelvis size) so are very dependent for a long time.

I’d add to this with the amount who talk about wanting kids and wanting a family and then when push comes to shove say they’ve changed their minds.

On this site they are referred to as future fakers- but I don’t think in all cases they are, I think they just don’t think about the reality in the same way.

I think it is also becoming more prevalent now as men fly the nest and launch later - start to have more years of fun on their own terms and then don’t want to give that up.

Personally I struggle to understand how you can change your mind on something as massive as kids- I can see that someone isn’t the right person, but I can’t get how you change your mind entirely-but then I look at the number of mine and my friends relationships that have ended or are unhappily childless because of this it doesn’t seem to be just one or two…

Women only have to be the primary caregiver if that’s what both parents decide. We’ve raised DT’s jointly - DH is more than capable of buying their shoes, organising dental appointments, knowing the names of their friends, what is on their Christmas list etc.

Some women just make bad choices in their partners and future fathers of their children

We still laugh about the time I met with all my siblings and their partners and our huge collection of annoying small children for a family picnic. Sister was wrangling her baby and toddler and we asked why her DH wasn’t there.
‘Oh it’s not really his thing. He’d rather be at home watching the football’
He also made the children stand up and greet him when he came home from work…

I completely agree, I think men are inherently selfish and will put their needs and wants first.
Our children are teenagers now but they amount of times I've suggested a visit somewhere or watch something on TV together to be told, "It's not really my thing, I'm not interested"
It's not for you! It's for the kids!
I really think more women would leave their husbands because they are so useless but don't because they feel guilty about being the one to split up the family.

I think a lot like the idea but not that bothered
but I honestly think if they were told it would be up to them to make all the sacrifices they wouldn’t have kids
not because there lazy and expect women to do it it purely the fact having kids isn’t to be all and end all they just wouldn’t have them

a lot make the right noises about having kids for a quite life

I think if ever they get the male contraceptive pill there would be be an enormous decline in the birth rate and no more happy accidents

Shocking but probably quite common.

I hope you went on to have a decent and fulfilling life - your ex will probably be bitter till the day he dies.