to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

My ex-DP desperately wanted children, more than me. He soon realised that he couldn't actually cope with children or family life, hence the ex. You can't know how children will change your life of you don't have them - but a lot of women have no choice. Every decision or choice I make is for the children, my ex, not so much.

Some of my friends have wonderful husbands who are hands on and supposedly equal partners and even then a lot of the mental load still falls on their wives.

I think it's biological and societal, as women as soon as we are pregnant our lives change and for men it's a huge whack on the head when they are born and realise that they are a parent now - some take to it like a duck to water and others realise it isn't for them. Unfortunately you can't take a decision back and some become backseat or even deadbeat parents.

I scored well on here because my husband is a teacher and rarely warm and sweet individuals and genuinely caring man, so kids for him have been part of his life and job before our child came ....cannot imagine any other way or a cold and distant father

This ‘biology is destiny’ nonsense is such internalised misogyny. Giving men excuses for their shit parenting.

Yeah, this was my DH. When we met he wanted 'two or three kids'. We married, had one, he then realised the reality and said he wanted to stop at one, despite the fact that I was the one doing 99% of the childcare. He took 2 days paternity leave and then went back to his FT job which involved long days and regular OS travel. Fortunately, he was very well paid and so I was able to be a SAHM for a number of years and on that basis he agreed to have DC2, because basically he wasn't doing any of the childcare, it was all on me and I wanted a second DC.

Now that they're teens he's very good with them and helps them study and work out at the gym, but when they were small he was fucking useless. If I ever went away overnight I had to have my DM come and take over because he simply couldn't do it and I didn't trust him to take good care of them. It's a bloody good thing I'm healthy and capable and was prepared to do it all myself.

I remember how it was when I was growing up in the 1950's. There were very few women who had a job outside the home. Therefore mothers were with the kids more than the fathers.My father pitched in when he could but my mother was the one who organized everyday needs for us. I think this may be why fathers slipped into a secondary role which was the norm for years. I see a big change with young fathers nowadays. There are many more hands on fathers and even stay at home dads which was unheard of in the past. Hopefully things will continue like this.

Oh I agree - I'm just saying that they say they parent equally and genuinely believe it but they don't really

I’d be questioning why does she pack for their daughter - ask her DH to? Why don’t they organise Christmas and birthday presents together or do they each buy their own presents? Why has she assumed responsibility for medical appointments, do they not both do stories and know what she likes reading.

Women’s jobs?

Well I think women don't want children as much as they THOUGHT they did

yes - I have friends who on the surface of it look to parent equally. He cooks, cleans and shops, takes their daughter to after school activities as much as my friend does however

• he doesn't know who her dentist is
• he doesn't know what size shoes she takes
• he doesn't know her friends when they go away he packs for himself, she packs for herself and they're daughter
• She always organises her birthday/sleep overs/christmas presents
• she knows what books she's reading at school and who her teachers are

basically in addition to all the 'equal parenting' she's just over the detail in a way that he isn't

This generation then needs to ensure that the inequality isn’t replicated in this and future generations. Although from reading many Mn posts the women have to shoulder a large proportion of the blame.

This. Women are the default always. My personal experience is that my ex husband was a great, involved father - to the point that when he went to toddler groups or parties, other parents commented on him being there!

I can remember him getting really pissed off when someone commented it was great he was ‘babysitting’ his son. He replied “no I’m parenting my son…”

We had long and in-depth discussions before we had children. Covered everything possible including how would we parent and considering the damage done to us by our respective parents.

But yeah I agree that men have no idea - I know men who have gone along with it to ‘keep the woman hapoy’ and then absolutely freaked when the reality of pregnancy and childbirth happens. Let alone parenthood…!

The inequality seems common on Mn but not something I see in our live or those of family and close friends

Same. I’m not sure why this is seen to be weird? Maybe it’s different social circles, but I don’t know any close friends who don’t have equal relationships in terms of childcare/housework/mental load.

I definitely should have been clearer. I meant a lot of women on here earn less than their husbands and they think they need to give up their jobs due to childcare costs (when it should really be split evenly and not seen as coming out of the women’s salary). Then they stay at home and are the defunct childcare. Whether they enjoy it or not, but women are apparently meant to.

The separate point was it’s socially unacceptable for women to fuck it all off. If men decide to leave their families it barely raises an eyebrow. The point I badly made, was that if it the roles were reversed, then I think women would fuck it all off!

Luckily my husband and I both earn the same, have equal childcare responsibilities and genuinely respect and love each other!

Think this applies both ways, no one knows what's coming. but i think men get carried away with the romance of doing the best bits.

It was a statistical fact over austerity that women were more affected than men and it was women who gave up their jobs to look after the kids. Always women are the caregivers and support species. We are actually going backwards in terms of rights ime. In the 90s men were going to step up and be more family oriented. My husband was going to be one of those, he was always telling me ‘when we drop sprogs we’ll do this or we’ll do that’. I of course was thinking that women do not ‘drop sprogs’, around the world we risk death giving birth and / or risk significant health issues. Just not on his radar at all.

In the event of course he took all the social kudos and his career was boosted if anything, and I made all the sacrifices. That’s what women do after all and what it turned out he expected women to do, for all the lies about being feminist and look how he supports women at his workplace. Until they have kids and they find themselves in the same place regardless.

Listen and learn, young women, and think if some good questions to ask. We all think it will be different. We all think we really do have equality. We are all wrong.

If my husband hadn't wanted kids I wouldn't have married him, not least because he expected me to be mum to his 2 sons

No, i would say when we were discussing having kids, DH wanted them, i wasn’t so sure and was worried, based on the experience of my friends who had young kids. Especially knowing we would have no support around. DH thought we’d be fine, but had nothing to go on at all, none of his friends had kids at that point. I took a lot of convincing. And tbh it’s been pretty shit so far.

It was for us - we followed the example set by my parents and DH’s. We wanted our family life to operate as joint and equal parenting. Our DC’s and both careers were important to both of us and we couldn’t do it without supporting each other

They moan about their husbands plenty but never about that.