to think a lot of men don’t actually want children as much as they say they do?

No wonder he's your ex

Yes. The fact that so many men choose not to see their child regularly after divorce says it all. It is inconceivable to me that someone could just abandon their kids or accept not being part of their day to day lives. There are exceptions, but I agree that many men who seem to do a lot still take instruction from their wives.

My exh is a good dad, maybe one of the best I know, but he doesn't do half of what I do. He's never done a doctors appointment, meeting with the teacher, he wouldn't know that it's whatever day at school or about homework. He wouldn't organise a party or a play date with a friend. He doesn't have the school app on his phone or any school/childcare/sport dates in his calender.

But yet he says all the time what an amazing dad he is, and he says I'm a very average mum. Maybe, by comparison, he is right. An amazing dad is far less than a pretty average mum.

They want children, they just don't want to do the work. Can't blame them, caring for small kids day in, day out, is a pretty shit, relentless and thankless job.

I'd love to be a father.

Agreed. It is all social conditioning and we are in a patriarchal society.

I voted Yabu because men are all in for fatherhood, not motherhood.

Becoming a father doesn’t affect their body. New fathers are more likely to get a pay rise/promotion instead of pregnant and sneakily made redundant or mummy tracked.

Society has told them since they were tots that all the child care and child decisions are the mum’s job, and that babies only want their mum so what is the point of a long paternity leave?

And if a man swims against this tide, he and the mother are often roundly criticised for their parenting choices. Some posters on here even think any man that would take paternity leave to be with baby while mum returns to work is a paedophile.

You have written essentially that because men don’t take on the socially defined role of a mother, then they don’t want kids. They do, it just means something completely different to them because they are men.

The rates of regretting becoming parents are about the same between the sexes.

Like Kevin in Motherland

It was him being across all that that made him soooo hot and sexually appealing I think.

Also i can attest that there’s quite a lot of ‘metal load’ working in a high stress role 40 hour weeks taking up to 20 hours overtime whenever can get it, with an 1.5 drive each way in order to pay the mortgage, the bills, run cars, Eat .. etc
fair bit responsibility on the old noggin there too

Cool. But the data shows your family and friends are not the norm.

Yep, obviously this is yet another occasion where it it's all the woman's fault... My DH was perfectly fine until I became pregnant with the baby he desperately wanted and then he turned into a complete and utter arsehole.

Sorry, I did make an update to state I wasn’t clear enough. Women are generally paid less is what I meant. Hence why the gender pay gap exists. There are more women in lower paid roles on average than men. That’s why I agree with keeping the £100k limit (losing childcare tax free status) per person rather than as a couple. It encourages women to keep their jobs to earn more, and for men to look at reducing hours in order to fulfil childcare rather than relying on the man to progress in his career whilst women take a step back.

My husband had kids because I said so, if I'd waited till he was "HELL YEAH!" I'd still be childless.

When they came he was smitten, made him love me even more tbh.

Spent far more time than me doing fun stuff, swimming, park, teaching them to ride a bike, he was there, front and centre.

He was always good cop, I had to be bad cop.

What a dad! Gloried in every minute of being a father, still does.

He has in fact suffered more from empty nest syndrome than me now they are in their 20s.

But I can categorically tell you it was in no way even. Not even close.

There are so many things I'd need a day but I can tell you one that springs to mind - no Drs appointments.

Even dads that are "hands on" ain't doing what mum is doing.

The mental load is real.

And when they left they had the option of leaving their children behind. It's not the option that the majority of mothers take, but it's an option that's nevertheless available to them.

Very timely seeing this thread. I only know men who still carry around the idea that raising the family, looking after the children is the woman's job, whether she is working or not, often unsaid and undisussed.

My family is what I care about - others care about their own and obviously do things differently

As I posted earlier, not something which happens in our family or close friends.
I feel so sorry for women and more for their children when the father doesn’t know basic things like their food likes and dislikes, who their best friend is at school, what position they play in their football team, what their latest school project is or the book they are reading each night at home.

Haven’t RTFT, but only two men I know actively wanted kids and said so.

Most fathers I know grudgingly consented to having kids under duress.

A former colleague of mine used to make awful ‘jokes’ in front of his kids about how he only agreed to have them to appease his wife, and he should have secretly had a vasectomy and let her believe she was infertile. They all hated and resented each other desperately.

I think a lot of women could do with letting go of the magical thinking that having a baby will ‘be the making’ of a reluctant partner, and men who have no interest in fatherhood should have the courage of their convictions even if it means the end of their relationship (/free domestic labour / access to regular sex).

What @lucyloo25 said.
I'm a woman and the idea of having children and sacrificing every part of my being seemed alien to me since I was a kid myself.
I found a husband who was thrilled with this stance, without exaggeration.
After 22 years, we are still going strong and, speaking for myself, I'm sure being child free plays a massive part in that.

I agree OP. I also think men find it very easy to detatch and that they really only 'love' their kids if they are with the mother. Once the relationship with the mother ends, they tend to walk away and not look back.

She posted a link to data.

That’s not true. A lot of single mothers left their relationships. In fact most.

I’ve noticed teachers often make good fathers.