English people are second class citizens

To talk of colonisation as being something done by one state to another trivialises the meaning of colonialism and the effects it had on indigenous populations. In any event, if you insist on seeing things that way, there was an Irish state before 1801 and after then it was simply part of a larger state and so participated in the acts of that state. But I think that's a red herring.

Irish people moved in large numbers throughout the 1800s to Australia, New Zealand, north America and elsewhere. They did this as migrants, settlers, farmers, soldiers and administrators and were a full part of the phenomenon of colonialism throughout that century. The country I live in has had 3 Irish-born prime ministers. This phenomenon involved a lot of indigenous people getting shot, dying of disease, getting dispossessed of their land and culturally pushed to the margins. These are not sweeping statements. They are truths that you will find in the histories of those countries. The fact that a lot of Irish people ended up there because of a brutal and criminally mishandled famine does not mitigate the effects on the indigenous populations of the places they moved to.

None of this is to say that "Ireland" is no better than "England" or "Turkey" or wherever. It's to point out that history us a lot more complicated than the stories that any nationality likes to tell about itself.

The English should absolutely be celebrating their English heritage/adoption of that heritage on St George's Day, but over the years it has unfortunately been hijacked by dickheads like football hooligans, racists, and Tommy Robinson.

I wonder if the issue with celebrating it is because of a lack of cohesive, long-standing traditions. St David's Day in Wales is a big celebration and is often marked by local, traditional Eisteddfods. We gift Daffodils, and Welsh cakes, and dress up in traditional Welsh lady clothes, or miners outfits (although more modern outfits centre around wearing rugby tops), and we celebrate our language and traditions through song and dance. There's often a Male Voice Choir somewhere in the mix, and Tom Jones is played at least once (😉).

What are the English/St George's Day equivalents of this? Are there even any? I lived and taught (ages 3-7) in England for over a decade - in the 2010s - and whilst noting/celebrating St George's Day slowly became more popular, there was never any event or celebration that was used across all of England. Going back to St David's Day, daffodils are EVERYWHERE. But, as far as I'm aware, roses aren't a fixture of St George's Day.

I will happily be corrected if my experiences aren't the norm!

(Just to note, I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been discussed!)

And the Irish should be thanking the British for reducing our BMI and tackling over population

I work alongside a white English woman. I'm more senior to her, but I'm black British. When it's quiet, she enjoys droning on about what's wrong with this country. Her greatest hits are illegal immigrants, Kier Starmer, legal immigrants, Labour, pensions. One day, I found myself with this colleague and a (white British) female client. Client was in tears and felt hopeless, especially as the situation was affecting her child. I listened, gave her a hug, and I felt compelled to support her as best I could. My colleague said nothing, and did nothing. After this client had left, she decided to rant about people 'like her' (the client) not being responsible (this was not a reckless situation at all, please believe me!), and maybe I was doing too much to support her (aka, doing my job). I stood up, ranted to her manager, and I don't know what came of that.

Here, I guess we have a class situation at play. This colleague of mine is bitter towards 'foreignness' attacking the values of this country, yet she can't find the heart to empathise with one of her English brethren. I won't go into detail, but classism is the issue here. My white colleague doesn't give a toss about the white people who are struggling in this country, but she'll stand side-by-side with them to be racist. That's all I can see. I definitely can't see how all this nationalism benefits any of the poorest white people in this country. Immigration issues are valid issues, but they aren't the only issue. Not even close.

The native population was treated as subhuman by the colonisers.

Saving Europe from dictators?

Half of Europe was "owned" by Stalin after the war.

Absolutely, Australia was a fully-fledged flourishing democracy with a developed legal system and highest per capita income when Captain Cook landed.

Our middle class town holds a St George's Day Parade every year.

Come off it, we have plenty of good things to celebrate. Shakespeare and his birthday, for one.

You're refusing to engage with what I said, which was far more than one anecdote, and which only served to illustrate my point

Refusing to engage? I didn't know we had agreed on debate structure but if you want ... you gave a family anecdote and a sweeping statement.

What era are you talking about? Irish people were British subjects from 1800 so any of your family that joined the British army between then and 1921 did so as British citizens. Prior to that Irish people were under British rule as far back as 1169, and certainly by the time the British were going to America, Africa, India and Australia.

Again, Ireland, as a state, was not a coloniser.

Who? You haven't quoted anyone.

I haven't seen one single post like that.

Sounds like you're just mixing in the wrong circles.

You're refusing to engage with what I said, which was far more than one anecdote, and which only served to illustrate my point. You'll have to do better than that. I don't imagine all that much is taught about colonisation in UK or Irish schools though that's just a belief I may be wrong about.

I’m even older than you and we didn’t do any of those things in school and why has no-one mentioned the dragon?

That's right! The original name for tarmac was TarMacAdam after its Scottish inventor. Shame we've all forgotten how to use it!

Edgar Hooley. In fairness he just improved on the method of road construction pioneered by John McAdam. Who was Scottish.

How about the didgeridoo - there's a fine English invention to swell the heart.

Just facts that need to be faced

One anecdote about your family doesn't make Ireland a colonial power.

It's like saying Britain was on the side of the Nazis because some English men joined the German army.

That is quite a stretch, I'm afraid. The U.S. and India became democracies in spite of the British, not because of them.

Yes I know all that. What's your point?

So basically you want other people to celebrate english ? Why can’t you celebrate yourself ? It’s not news that most of the world already find the English arrogant already , you expect others to celebrate St George’s flag ?

I think you might want to do some reading about NI, partition and the history of the Ulster plantations. I mean, in case you think that this is some kind of ‘gotcha’.

My own (Irish) ancestors fought in the British army and settled on land that was expropriated from the indigenous population. Some comments made in their memoirs make me wonder whether they were involved in atrocities.

Irish people fought in the army, served as colonial administrators and settled on the land and farmed it. This wasn't just true in the Empire but in the US too.

None of this nullifies the fact that Ireland was colonised by the British, though you may notice that even now independence for the entire island isn't unanimously accepted by its population.

Not a wind up. Just facts that need to be faced

Who gives a shit who invented what. It's all tribalistic nonsense

It's a Thursday, I have work tomorrow so I wasn't going to any parties.

Maybe you've confused "working class" with "unemployed people."

Fs now I want fish and chips