To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

There's also a massive ignorance on here of the ways in which the working class traditionally accessed education. Working class doesn't mean fucking stupid.

I come from a multicultural background and I honestly think many white British people don't have the same family values as some other cultures.

I'm really tired of hearing that the education system isn't set up for boys. It's quite clear that it's not set up for anyone in particular, and many of the people who do well at school do so because they adapt and adjust as well as they can. There's nothing specifically bad about it that is uniquely not set up for boys.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce8lnpyg7nno

These white working class girls know damn well it doesn’t matter how much they achieve.

As a south Asian 7yo child immigrant giving my personal perspective, I can say it wasn't even value of education. Yes, my mum threatened us with the dreaded slipper to get us to bed at 8pm each night and my dad dragged our arses to school by car before going to work. We had no guidance on careers, graduate schemes, vocations - nothing. We didn't belong anywhere, we were in limbo and it was just a relentless desire to keep going, to get to the next stage.

You might not use geometry, algebra or physics, nor become a concert pianist after piano lessons but brains are plastic apparently and all of this stretching of understanding must surely develop children’s brains and I would say that that is a good thing.

I fully share this view.

And to add to this that these groups of low aspirations under achievers usually don't go to marry and have kids with high achievers, or even rarely mix socially. And yes, welfare props this up indefinitely.

Exactly, @Thepeopleversuswork . It's used frequently.
Why didn't he do revision for the test?
Why didn't she act on feedback?
Why hasn't he attended extra help sessions?
Why is she breaking uniform policy wearing a micro skirt?
"We pick our battles".
So tired of it.

They don’t.

Men still have a far better economic outlook in life than women. That has not changed. Women have to choose between a family and a career once again, and choosing a family means we pay the highest motherhood penalty in Europe.

Educational achievement matters the square of fuck all already. Women’s professional careers pay far less than men’s work, not because they are less valuable to society but because women do them. This is why women teachers are getting more and more shit from younger and younger boys in school. They know what a woman is and exactly how much women are worth.

There is no hope of change: every time we have worked for change men change the fucking rules.

Just don’t have kids for these abysmal animals.

A digression but I also find this irritating.

All the middle class parents up in arms about the outrage of their children being given homework in primary school, which was a huge thing when my DD was at primary, and not pushing them too hard, insisting that the holidays are about rest.

Obviously pushing children too hard is counterproductive and they need rest… but I do find the contrast between this and immigrant families very striking.

The hard reality is that the children whose parents push them to achieve will generally have better outcomes than those whose parents don’t (excluding other factors).

The pollyannaism of some middle class parents who insist that their children know how to motivate themselves is a sign of a pretty decadent society. And, being middle class, they can afford not to fear that they are at risk of social failure all the time. It creates a downwardly mobile, aspiration free environment which is not good for outcomes.

Children shouldn’t be brutalised through school, but a bit of a sense of urgency is needed.

I do!!
eg I say maths is important for estimating costs and eg how much you require.

I suspect also that AI will change things. Trades will be AI proof.

All the tradies I know did well. A few sent their children to private schools. Now I wonder if the benefit would e been to encourage them to follow the trade.

Teaching and nursing are accessible careers and then their children are pushed. Moving up a class generationally.

I do think class has a big impact. I’ve heard so many 15 year olds say my parents tell me I have to
contribute to the house costs so I’m getting a job when I’m leaving school.

Alternatives to education are difficult to get. There’s not enough apprenticeships for those that want them. Plus barriers such as maths English requirements.

It is not accepted that children from GRT backgrounds are massively behind, there is just little than can be done about it because if parents refuse to consent it's game over. There are small pockets of Traveller girls that have gone onto third level education (and boys to a lesser extent) but that is because the communities they live in have allowed this. If you live in a community that will shun you or label your daughter as a whore for going to secondary school, no amount of government funding will help. Attitudes need to change before action can be implemented, the same for the WC boys.

That is a load of rubbish. I think church attendance in the UK in that teenage group the highest would be black Caribbean boys.

From what I've seen you either need to be brilliant like DH from go so when you encounted teachers career people telling you to aim lower you have talent and belief to ignore to a large extent.

I'm female but I and some working class boys like me struggling in my primary - one without behavorial issues or bad attitude - which is probably why my brother did not get same oppountity - to go onto actually good programs that catch you up if you struggle or fall behind. As staff shotages and money tighening hits expect they'll be less of those.

If you go to a school were the programs they have you can't get on - my DC were not struggling enough apparently - parents like us do reseach and step in some how. Endless excused why DS was struggling offered - summer born being a common one - but help no and when asking how to help they never wanted to tell us. Now more resources you have easier stepping in is anyway but with siblings children and parents we knew where DC grew up - all working class - there was an expectation it was school issues to solve rather than something to help at home with as well - that varies as DH and I show.

Also approaching some schools and teachers you background can influence how you are treated - dropping DH PhD and watching change in attitude was depressingly useful. On flip side having seen behavior towards staff at some schools can see why a us vs them attiude develops. It's not pleasant though when you politely go in with a carefully measured issue and get met with dismisal and agressive or suspicious reponses immediatley.

I think enough working class boys like DH get through doing well that everyone can claim it's not the system - and one who don't parents blame schools and schools blame parents - and middle class parents can sneer at working one blaming them when their access to same resources to push their kids along is lower.

Also, the parents who say to you "we pick our battles", although I tend to find that's more the middle class underachievers.

One of my friends is a teacher, and she says that she can generally tell which children are going to succeed, and which are going to fail, and it has nothing to do with were they breastfed, or do they come from a wealthy home, or any other factors - other than those kids who have invested parents, including parent/s who read to them at night when they are young, have the best outcomes. Of course, this is anecdotal only, but I can see the logic in it.

Yes. Same here.

Mention having your child do 30 minutes of homework a day and some act like you’re torturing them as if 30 minutes is a long time.

My two oldest do have SEN and even if they didn’t, they would still be doing 30 minutes of homework a day. We would still be taking them to the cultural things that some on here deem ‘snobby’, investing in their interests, etc. I find free and low-cost options and create things myself to help them. Same with the regular dialogue with the teacher and what is needed, how we can support our children. Why wait until they’re older where it’s much harder and likely more resistance than making it the standard?

Growing up, we were expected to have goals, expected to have good grades because there was little excuse not to and when we weren’t it was a discussion between us and the teacher on what could be done, advice, etc because my parents as do I see teachers as colleagues not adversaries, both working towards the same goal.

It was instilled in us the importance of not just education, but learning, being curious, asking questions, critical thinking, how to research, etc. After awhile, it simply became second nature. If some families don’t value such things, why would their kids think to?

Some posters may see it as ‘unnecessary pressure’ but then would likely be the ones complaining and saying parents should have started sooner if their children were far behind as young children or be moaning on here about their own children not doing xyz in the later parts of primary and into secondary.

It's down to parenting. Shitty parenting.

Some (obviously generalised) traditional white working class values:

The elevation of manual work over mental work, so a hod carrier who can heft a huge number of bricks onto his shoulder is working harder, and is thus more respected, than the "pen-pusher" boss in the office, whose arm presumably barely has the strength to pick up a pen.

The non-acceptance of gate-keeping measures like Maths GCSE. I have not used manual long division, much less solved a quadratic equation, since I left school, despite me now working in IT. The middle classes accept that Maths GCSE is a proxy for an IQ test and is a door-opener. Lower class people are correct in their assessment that the stuff taught in Maths is nearly all useless and irrelevant to work, and they don't see or don't accept the gate-keeping aspect.

The elevation of the community over the individual. If you are starting to do well and are from a working class background, you are 'getting above yourself'. Someone who stays in the area and joins in the local culture is valued above someone who leaves for individualistic reasons.
Economic responses to situations are often communal, e.g. an older relative getting a job for a school leaver in the place they work, or families lending each other money and pooling resources. When you have an extended family and community, you have an economic cushion and you don't give it up lightly.

Most people outside of white English culture have very little idea of how much the class division pervades everything. It is everywhere, but mostly invisible to outsiders, and the effects are all-pervasive.
Take the idea of 'respecting authority'. A white working class boy will often accept a working class authority figure, but not a middle class one. And the class origin of a person is 100% obvious as soon as they speak or eat.

On the subject of white working class 'entitlement', these boys have grandfathers who chant "two world wars and one world cup", and parents who remember their grandfathers waxing lyrical about how Britain ruled the world. The legacy of being poor in a post-colonial country runs very deep.

Oh yes this is very common

I can't speak for other ethnicities, but as an Indian I can tell you that most Indian parents will aspire to send their kids to grammar school because we're brought up in a system that puts a lot of emphasis on education and the school/university you go to.

India has some very prestigious universities and getting into them is the ultimate 'my child has made it' pride for Indian parents. They bring the same attitude when they come to the UK and see grammar schools as a 'must have' for their child. This can sometimes lead to lot of stress if their child is not naturally able and that's when the tutoring cycle starts!
If I meet a new Indian acquaintance and tell them my child is in secondary school, they will immediately list out nearby grammar schools as a way of asking which one my child for into. Some of them could never comprehend sending their child to the local comprehensive! It's either grammar or private.

All this is to say that there's a lot of push from home for these Indian kids to do well. Which is why you see a higher percentage of Indian children doing better than working class white boys.

I wish I knew how to make this more balanced...

It has always been that white working class boys often can't be bothered with education and have little aspiration. Growing up in a very working class area my brother got ridiculed by most of the other boys and labelled as 'the professor' for daring to work hard at school and this was in the 50s and 60s. For other ethnic groups the chance of a good education was jumped on a lot of the time. I would think working class black boys have also become less interested in education following the lead of their white counterparts. The interest in getting a good education seems to fade as the availability increases. You see children in poor countries walking miles to get to school and desperate to learn.

The deliberate early cessation of education and knowledge in some communities really does impact the outcomes for young people, especially young girls.

I hope that as society leans more heavily into technology and devices, young people will be exposed to learning in other ways. Perhaps screen time and devices for very young children will have a positive impact with those from low aspirational backgrounds.

I agree there are so many factors at play as already discussed.

Ive often wondered if puberty and slower brain maturation could play a part?

I think testosterone hits boys harder and in a very different way than oestrogen does for girls. I think testosterone makes boys more competitive but because of the later maturity of the prefrontal lobe, this increase in competitive, masculine behaviour is not tempered with executive function. Delayed gratification for educational needs gets left behind. They have other emotions driving them - perhaps self interest and it’s consequent behaviour is most dominant?

Oestrogen on the other hand I think makes girls more socially compliment, plus I think the science says their brain matures 2yrs ahead of boys. I think this would explain the better statistics for white working class girls over the white WC boys.

So how come it’s only white and working class boys and not higher income or Asian and other ethnicities. I think this is when the other factors come into play and have more influence.

Boys from stable families with high parental involvement and high expectations, in areas with good funding and high employment are mostly able to offset some of these negative effects of puberty.

I’ve heard it said boys would benefit if GCSEs and A levels could be taken 2 years later.

I haven’t mentioned Porn use and the Andrew Tate effect, because I believe this trend was already noticed before those things became so prevalent. But thats another detrimental influence at play.

I don’t know if I’ve managed to explain myself well- as a woman I can only guess at what puberty feels like for boys.

Bring back Borstal Training. They need to learn discipline and a trade.