To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

Right. I think that’s one for: “As a black man” subreddit.

MN does express itself strongly about the poor behaviour of men. A good thing in my view.

But the wider world still loves men. Gives them all the power, jobs and everything.

There's some really interesting responses on this thread. There's also a fair bit of snobbery and smug "we do it so why can't they, oh, must be because they're morally and intellectually inferior." This is so narrow minded and plain wrong. There are nuanced and complicated reasons for these outcomes. For the snobs, I hope one day you are on the receiving end of someone else's judgement and maybe you'll acquire some humility.

White working class here - well, I have a working class background. My parents were worried (mainly about the debt) when I said I wanted to go to university. I was the first in my family on both sides and my parents were clueless about how it’s not traditional debt. If I was a boy, I’d have been encouraged to do a trade like the more successful men in my family.

There is an anti-intellectualism in Britain that is very depressing. You find it at all levels of society (I doubt Prince Harry has ever read a serious book), but it's especially strong among the working-class.

I know a French girl with an English husband. She once said to me "oh, he's SO English." As time went by I realised that by "so English" she meant an ignorant, beer-swigging, football-obsessed oaf who would no more go to an art gallery than jump off a cliff. Years ago I remember going in a French supermarket and wandering around the book section. I was amazed to see Voltaire and Flaubert and so on. In an English supermarket you'd never see Jane Austen or Virginia Woolf, just the latest piece of drivel from Jordan.

Education has not been a driver of social mobility since wages and house prices were deliberately disconnected at the turn of the millennium. Selina Todd’s ‘Snakes and Ladders’ is available for those who want links to research.

I also take issue with your idea that there has been loads of time to be mobile and tough to those who haven’t managed it: firstly because there really has not been much time, I am only second generation following the world wars, born in late 70s to boomer parents; and secondly because there should never be a time when those unlucky enough to be born to poor parents should not be given opportunity.

What?

@CinnamonJellyBeans is looking for a commission from Spiked. She has Brendan O'Neil's style down to a pat.

Digital Blackface really is something.

There is no “White History Month” because that’s every month. And there absolutely are diversity policies that would incorporate white people such as things aimed at women, working class people and LGBT people.

As for “white men having the shit kicked out of them” that is something you completely made up.

Right?

”Awash with scholarships” - LOL!

Lack of engagement affects academic outcomes for both but girls “benefit” from generally being raised to be more compliant - more homework done, lower exclusions for behaviour etc.

Wages tend to follow sex rather than the other way around. Female dominated jobs are lower paid even where skill levels needed are matched for male dominated jobs. That is partly historic and partly the high degree of protectionism of historic differences. I remember the first time I came across stats about salaries in a number of STEM jobs, including medicine and being surprised/not surprised that countries with higher proportions of women in a job tended to pay that job less. It was especially marked in medicine where women have dominated the profession in some countries and it had less pay and status compared to the local male dominated professions.

There’s an issue in this country of doing well at school not being cool. Some parents agree with it. Education for any working class kids is very variable.

Really? What do you think went on in all those workers institutes and libraries that were built in every industrial town?

I often wonder if this is due to occupational segregation. Men and women still tend to do different jobs.
A man can be “uneducated” (in terms of academic education) and still make a lot of money in a “male” job. The equivalent “female” jobs tend to be much lower paid so women assume, unless they can be models or successful in the sex industry, to earn money requires formal education.

Part of it must be the flip side of social mobility. Education is a big driver of upward mobility. So those who remain working class are descendants of those who haven't made the transition now over repeated generations. It's a different stock. Not the same for non-white people in the UK, who may have fewer generations of genuine social mobility to filter through, plus the benefit of the selection effect of who choses to back themselves to emigrate.

Also 'working class' is often used (unfairly) as the catch-all description for the 'bottom' socioeconomic group, many of whom are not in fact very economically active and who would struggle to be able to immigrate if they weren't from here. So again, selection effects.

Quite.

Different cultures have different values? I mean everybody knows that (while there is also overlap).

But also there are many white British cultures.

Lol at the 'rest' comment

Kids need one day of rest, then they're ready for another daily twelve hours of activity

@C8H10N4O2 all of this, absolutely 👍

Which of the thousands of sets of data and pieces of research are you interested in? I’m summarising outputs from decades of pieces.

However don’t take my word for it - have look at places like the ONS, DFE for historic data disaggregated, plus of course cohort studies used as additional source data for influences on outcomes in education, health, social progress, earnings across lifetimes. Look for papers on the influences on success in education - over and over its parental engagement and poverty as a combination accounting for the worst underachievement.

There is no shortage of work on the differences in treatment and expectations of boys vs girls behaviour either, some dating back 60+ years with more recent observational studies showing the same effects.

As for why is there no white history month - there are 11 white history months, the bulk of the curriculum remains focused on white history, scientists, writers etc. That is why there are specific initiatives to highlight the actual existence of creatives, scientists etc who were not white men (and overwhelmingly white affluent men). Much as international women’s day was set up to recognise female success and systemic disadvantages (although there was so much whinging about have a whole day labelled for women, we now have an IMD as well)

The reluctance to have men in certain roles and situations comes from the reality that certain types of crime are overwhelmingly male committed - men need to address this. Men are certainly not “getting the shit kicked out of them” but men are doing the literal kicking the shit when it happens. If men do not want to be excluded from certain roles or spaces - its in their gift to promote better behaviours amongst men instead of excusing and minimising it as “just bantz” or “just locker room”.

I’m not sure you understand the purpose of things like black history month. The reason there isn’t a white history month or similar is because white history is the default, it’s everywhere, it’s celebrated.

@ThePeppyOpalScroller
Do you know why there isn't a White History Month?

Sorry, not following - who is kicking the shit out of white teenage boys (literally or metaphorically)?

I know you say you are black, and I will take that as being true, but I am more than a little surprised that speaking up against racial oppression is being equated to a squeaky wheel!

Often, when the low attainment of white working class boys is mentioned, the data that seems to back this up is for pupils on, or ever on, free school meals.

For all groups (girls, boys, white British, Indian, Black Catribean etc etc) those in relative poverty (i.e. free school meals) do worse than those not on free school meals. The gap for white boys is the biggest of any group. This has been known for 15+ years. And not ignored.

State schools in England (I don' t know about situation elsewhere) received additional funding for the number of free school meals pupils they have. OfSted look at schools to judge how effectively they use this money for their FSM pupils.

The gap in attainment for white boys on FSM and their peers has proved hard to reduce.

I suspect that some politicians latch onto the term "Working Class" rather than "poor" because for more people consider themselves working class than claim free school meals and it suits the politicians' aims to appear champions of the working class.

Could you link the research please.