To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

Forgot to add in secondary school if wasn’t tuna and cucumber sandwiches it was tuna and cucumber BAGUETTES.

Now discovering them that was a beautiful day

White bread and butter (not margarine)

Absolutely delicious

Not sure what that poster is talking about she worked a working class job her whole life and retired in a tiny house.
She also inspired a love of tuna and cucumber sandwiches which I also went on to choose at secondary school in the cafeteria (for free because my parents were poor)

No silver spoons here just appreciation for the cucumber sandwich

My son is a WC white boy. I’ve been to uni (not a great one and didn't move away), his dad hasn’t and works in a MW job. We own a house but I wouldn’t say we have books everywhere nor are particularly cultured. He goes to a very MC school. His academic achievement is broadly inline with his MC friends whose parents are university professors, IT people, teachers, in the media. What is different though is confidence. My son fundamentally lacks confidence. I don’t know if it’s class or whether we are unconsciously apologetic in those MC spaces or around MC parents.
When he gets older, I will have absolutely no contacts to get him anything. That’s very different.
He’s average in most subjects and hates doing any schoolwork at home. And tbh, I don’t push him and I am also exhausted from being out the house 9-6pm every day. His dad works 7-7.
That is something which sets us apart. We have much less control over our diaries. Much more likely to need to do our job in a set place, doing set hours, no WFH etc.
We also have to work so much harder to afford to live in areas like the one we live in. Plus factors such as the extracurricular activities available to kids who need UC or FSM to pay are generally shit and not as educational or exercise focused as the ones you pay for. So you get all the MC kids being able to do rugby, science club, chess club which require a parent to pick them up at 3.15 and drop them to another club at 4. WC kids go to the school afterschool club which is just the sports hall with a load of kids; bored TA’s, no real activities, ‘free play’ but they can stay until 6.
Its not hard to see what needs to change but it’ll take ££££

I apologise for being born. You were the one who is obsessed with cucumber sandwiches. I merely mentioned an anecdote from my schooldays, highlighting the difference between a working class child and a woman who thought she was middle class and better than everyone else.
Have a happy life

I think this is part of the issue when you are sorting by ethnicity and race together.

Are Caribbean families more likely to be wc than African families, for historical reasons? If so - it's pretty clear why Africans would have fewer poor outcomes, more of them the advantages of being middle or even upper middle class.

You also see that when we talk about wc white families, a certain number are really properly considered underclass or left behind or however you want to designate that group. Usually generationally. Those kids are always going to be high risk. I suspect you are less likely to see that with families who are more recently arrived, they might be working class, but not generational members of an underclass. Even if they were where the family originate, they had enough resources, inner or externally, to emigrate.

I also think in some cases it's significant that there can be extra educational options for minorities. I know lots of wc white rural kids where I live who struggle to pay for education, there are a lot more options for those who can access scholarships, bursaries, or positions designated for racialised groups.

Nope. No chip.
Do you eat cucumber sandwiches? Do you feed them to visiting children?
I used to feed visiting kids spag bol. Or biscuits etc. Always went down well.
If I was eating or feeding someone cucumber sandwiches I would put some cheese on it. In fact, I'd probably add crisps too.
My mother cooked a hearty meal every evening. Roast on Sunday, cottage pie made from lefovers on monday, steak on Friday .
As usual, mumsnet has descended into madness because someone who is long dead once fed a visiting child cucumber sandwiches.
Middle class mummy was not only upset that my dad had an actual car, which was better than hers; but we also lived in a detached house. She lived in a semi. Her assumptions about me were totally wrong.

I absolutely do not get it.

My very much lower class grandmother (worked in a factory her whole life) was obsessed with cucumber sandwiches. Cucumber and tuna. And weirdly enough cucumber and honey (oddly delicious)

Everyone gets 13 years of free education . I wish I had had that pointed out to me when as a teenager thinking it was cool not to care.

Thanks for the info, I think culture has a lot to do with it. I think here for a long time people from working class backgrounds would work hard in a manufacturing job and have a decent standard of living, there was social housing and publicly owned services and resources. A lot of that is gone now. Working class people were told when the factories shut to stick in at school and go to university to get one of the new high paid, high tech jobs that would be coming. However a lot of these jobs just didn't exist and working class people lacked a lot of the social and cultural capital that middle class people competing for the same work had. Its really complex I think. I remember when studying for my masters in London, I was the only person on my course not to have been to private school and at a party once my peers openly laughed about my accent saying I sounded like someone who would use a farmfoods bag as my carry on luggage, the British class system is real and perhaps doesn't apply to those who immigrate here in the same way although they can of course face other prejudices and I do think many 1st generation immigrants work really, really hard.

I find the postcode thing crazy. Near me there is a road with large houses around a quarter of them are lived in by one family (so obviously wealthy) half are split into small flats and another quarter are homeless shelters and bed and breakfasts with homeless people in them.

Whilst in theory on UC people are better off working, if you have never worked working 16 hours a week for an extra £200 a month seems like far too much hassle for little gain.
Everyday issues have been pathologized too. I just listened to the radio 4 programme and one of the reasons given as to why wwc girls are falling behind is that they are taking on more responsibility at home. One interviewee was saying that both her parents work 9-5 so she hasn't got anyone at home for her when she gets in, so has to "look after the house" until her mum comes in. That's fairly standard to have 2 parents working 9-5?

Middle class mummy made assumptions about my family because we lived about 3 miles from the grammar school, not within walking distance.
The cucumber sandwiches were a symbol of genteel afternoon tea from Middle class mummy. My mum would probably have provided a cup of tea and biscuits after school. We never ate cucumber sandwiches

No chip?

I do agree with your opinion on the current Labour stance on education.

@Jammibats These countries don't all have a comprehensive welfare system like the UK. In my parents home country there aren't benefits available like here, no UC top up or housing benefit.

If you lose your job, you better find another one and/or have decent savings or a relative abroad who can support you. This is why education is so valued because it gives you access to more stable, higher paid, professional jobs.

In my kids school, so many able white wc parents don't work or work p/t to qualify for full benefits. There isn't the drive to improve themselves, benefits are there to help people in a difficult situation.

I want to move into a specific industry so I've got a casual wkend job to get further experience. I've had eye rolls from the parents at school, they don't understand why I'd want to do it. They don't understand that the experience I get now from this new job will open up jobs where I can earn £££ in a few years time.

Nope. I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I didn't realise that my family was working class. My dad worked very long hours and ran his own business. We were wealthier than our contemporaries.
I probably remember the incident because it was the first time in my life that anyone had looked down on me.
Middle class mummy made assumptions about my family because we lived about 3 miles from the grammar school, not within walking distance.
The cucumber sandwiches were a symbol of genteel afternoon tea from Middle class mummy. My mum would probably have provided a cup of tea and biscuits after school. We never ate cucumber sandwiches.

Grammar schools were very popular with those who passed 11+ and their parents.
They were unpopular with people who had failed the 11+, especially those from the 'Middle class' who considered themselves a cut above others. They were mortified when their kids failed. A lot of kids at my grammar had irish parents. This was at a time when the Irish were still looked down upon. Grammar schools were unpopular with labour politicians of the time. They didn't want people to get on in life through education. Though many Labour mps were grammar school educated. They kicked away the ladder to success for others. They were abolished through spite and envy. Much like the present labour government wants to destroy private education. They do not want parental choice.
There was the unfair stereotype that grammar school students were stuck up and posh. Just watch the musical Blood Brothers. It just hammers home left wing stereotypes. One of my favourite musicals btw.
The remaining grammars and private schools are very popular. Parents want the best for their kids. I'm sure that, given parental choice, grammar schools could return. Bridget phillipson has no intention whatsoever in letting parents have a say in their kids education- just read the sen parents comments on mumsnet.
I had forgotten technical colleges. One of my cousins went to technical college. He went on to university and an MBA.

'Disadvantaged' isn't the same as WWCB. DS had a contextualised offer to an RG based on our postcode which is classed as 'disadvantaged'. We're not WC. His friends had similar offers; they are neither W nor WC. 'Disadvantaged' is too broad a designation to target the group we're talking about so they are further disadvantaged.

One of the reasons that grammars were so unpopular was because working class kids passed the 11+. They were clever. Middle class kids often failed. Mummy and daddy didn't like that at all. How dare wc kids be clever

Were grammar schools unpopular? And with whom?
They were very popular when I was a child and still very popular now in the areas that still have them.

I don’t understand your statement that working class kids passed but middle class often failed. What has class got to do with it in this sense?
You can argue that those with the drive and money maybe more like to pass if they can buy books and tutoring but just being a particular class?

State schools do not want to know they have clever children… we had 11+ lessons at my state school all those years ago, the whole class got them. Not sure what happens now as we don’t have grammars in our area.

I have no doubt that you experienced snobbery but it does sound like you have a chip on your shoulder - I don’t know the relevance of cucumber sandwiches but I am guessing it is meant to set the scene.

I'm also 38 and had EAL lessons for the first year or two of primary school...I remember being taken to a little room and having lessons with a couple of other kids where a teacher showed us flash cards. I suppose it probably depended the local authority/how much spare funding they had.

There's another threat ATM worrying about AI, I wonder how it will affect things once the MC parents start pushing their DC into the trades...maybe they will become really competitive academically to get into college courses? (As more kids competing for places)

Incredibly common in the rural disadvantaged area I live in.

Parents saying just that - you don’t need exams to milk cows.

Parents thinking their 16 yo school leaver can ‘just get a job as an electrician, that’s what I did’, then discovering actually, no, you need an apprenticeship which are like gold dust here.

My DS is just about to start his GCSEs, and he hears this all the time from peers and their parents.

The 11+ still has verbal and non verbal reasoning tests. That's why the cpg revision guides in verbal and non verbal reasoning are so popular.
Yes. Kids can be tutored in English and maths.
State schools don't cover verbal reasoning. They don't want to know that they may have clever kids in there. I am more than willing to bet that there are some kids who aren't performing well in primary school who would ace the verbal and non reasoning tests - because they are naturally clever.
Private tutors can help to familiarise students with non verbal reasoning. They can't actually teach someone to be clever.
For the un-initiated, the tests involve shapes and sequences and stuff. Some jobs use them as part of the interview process.
Many private schools use them too. Often, hundreds and hundreds of kids sir the entrance exam for selective schools. Most of them will fail. Often they will fail because of their lack of reasoning powers. One of the reasons that grammars were so unpopular was because working class kids passed the 11+. They were clever. Middle class kids often failed. Mummy and daddy didn't like that at all. How dare wc kids be clever.
I remember a mc friend from grammar inviting me home for cucumber sandwiches and afternoon tea. Even as an 11 year old I knew her mother was looking down on me. I can remember her asking me if my daddy owned a car? I took great pleasure in telling her that he owned more than one, together with the makes of car he owned. Mc mummy only drove an old banger. It was a bit like that scene from Pretty woman.