To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

@Empis It’s interesting isn’t it? We have had a lot of recent immigration from Nigeria recently in my area and we’ve had a lot of African churches established one is called “The Winners Chapel” and it seems to have a central belief of pushing yourself to success in life and a bit of online research tells me it has a prosperity doctrine. Perhaps there is a bigger culture of striving for better things? I also agree that those who immigrate are more likely to be of the mindset and physical ability to push themselves to do hard things.

I think the definition of working class in this context is broad. It's not a phrase often used, but perhaps underclass may be better suited. I don't like the terminology as it has horrible connotations, but when people are referring to families who haven't worked for generations and don't value education, working class isn't an apt description. Many skilled trades people earn more money than middle class professionals. Also working class is such a broad descriptor, it covers swathes of people as does middle class.

There's also plenty of working-class Nigerians in the UK. I've lived in Nigeria and my impression was that education is valued there and schools are quite strict. My mum who has diasporan Nigerian kids in her class says the parents are generally really supportive of the school. My personal observation was that Nigerians are hard workers and that success is really culturally valued there. All surface-level stuff and I could be wrong but I wouldn't just put British Nigerian's achievements down to there being a lot of middle/upper class Nigerians in Britain (which there definitely are) I think there's other factors at play.

I attended Dd1’s graduation last year and many of the students were of South/East Asian origin and African ( mainly Nigerian ) origin.
These ethnic groups tend to value education and will invest in their children’s education even if it means taking on extra work to pay for extra curricular activities such as tutoring
In white working class families many still have the entrenched belief that education is not for them and some children are actively discouraged from pursuing higher education

I’m not convinced that the way school is set up disadvantages boys. People often say this and the implication is that it is set up to favour girls, that boys are less suited to sitting still, being quiet and facing the teacher for long periods. However schools have more or less been set up like this since a time when it was only generally boys that were educated.

The sitting still at a desk for long periods also doesn’t suit a lot of girls so I think something else is going on. I’m from a working class background although both my parents were highly intelligent neither stayed on at school. My mum felt the only option she was given for further education was teachers training collage which she didn’t want and my Dad had no choice but to go out to work after his Dad passed away, so his mum was a single parent and he had six siblings. Education was valued but my mum always said as long as I did my best she’d be proud of me. She did sit with us every day while we did our homework she didn’t work again until I was 12 and she read to us. I got music lessons paid for by the local authority which I think really helped me a lot. I did go on to university and to get a degree and a masters.

Looking at what kids from my background have now its harder. Class sizes are bigger, there can be a lot of disruption also true in my day but it does seem worse. Both parents work and often homework isn’t supported or tolerated (my SIL refuses to make her kids do their home work) I get this as both parents are working and battles over homework are the last thing people need and most families need the duel income to survive.

High dopamine distractions are rife, its hard to resist them even as an adult and if nobody is heavily guiding you to build those habits for discipline then it’s too easy to be sucked in to those more immediate rewarding habits of screen time, video games and so on. Poor diets, lack of physical activity, lack of sleep also probably figure.

My niece and Nephew also use AI to do pretty much all their homework even the creative stuff and they are both really bright kids. This is so depressing as there is no way that works out well for them long term.

This in a nutshell

Does it actually hinder white working class boys though? I come from a wealthy area and my school was among the highest achieving state schools in the country. Many of my female friends had fantastic grades and their pick of universities and courses. And yet many of the white working class boys (to be fair almost everyone was white where I am so not many people from other ethnicities to compare with) who failed more or less everything or didn't sit anything much to begin with have ended up in what look to be higher earning careers in trades and manual work. They seem to have big houses in the private sector (no idea if they're rented or bought) and beautiful things from photos on Facebook. Beautiful wives (who I presume had a good choice in partners) and lots of lovely holidays. For the most part, many of my female friends only have this due to their high earning partners and some don't have it at all despite decades of study and long working days. I don't see many on benefits although that may be a function of living in a wealthy area with good job opportunities. Things may be different for those in old mining towns.

I agree to a certain extent but there is also an ambition to improve your circumstances that is missing from white wc communities. This is what my community has, my parents valued education but they didn't go to university. It's because they didn't have a degree and had a business working long hours that they wanted better for me.

Most of my white working class friend's families discouraged education past 16. They saw it as a waste of time and beyond their reach; it wasn't what people from their communities did so why should they.

people that migrate to the U.K. don’t suddenly develop a strong culture of the importance of education. It’s already. instilled in the home countries.

There is so much of this amongst white men of certain backgrounds, it's terrifying. It's why we have Trump in the White House and why Farage is so popular. They think because they're white the world owes them something for nothing.

This, so much of it is the parents. If you don't value education, why would your children? It's quite simply generations of families who don't value education and who don't respect teachers. This becomes a vicious cycle, kids don't care and don't try because their parents haven't encouraged them to value education and good teachers will avoid the schools and areas these children live in. Obviously, there are good teachers in these schools, but not as many as in areas where families actually value education.

I went to a school in a northern town where most of the white kids left at 16 and some before. The white kids who stayed on in 6th form were mainly from European backgrounds.

There wasn't any interest in further education because that involved too much hard work. So they all went in to manual labour and minimal wage jobs and the poverty trap. Their families were similar and actively discouraged education and didn't make the connection between education and higher paid jobs.

I didn't have an option but to go to university, my parents made it very clear that's what was expected. It was a similar experience for many friends in my immigrant community. Mainly because regular jobs weren't open to us due to racism and discrimination. I couldn't get a Saturday job in retail during the 80s because my face didn't fit.

So all my efforts were spent on getting a degree, moving out & getting a professional job. More options were open to me this way, even though it was still hard. The w/c white kids could walk into jobs in garages/ factories/shops where their families worked. So they had access to another 'jobs for the boys' network that I didn't.

Kids from immigrant communities generally didn't have that option. We could get jobs in restaurants/takeaways while we were at uni/training but they were only temporary. The expectation was always to move out of those jobs and into professional jobs because working conditions were better.

So now you have a situation where the Indian restaurant trade in the UK is struggling to recruit UK born staff. This is because the 2nd/3rd generation kids don't want to do it. Their parents have generally moved away from that industry so immigrant staff fill the catering roles now. This is just one example of the impact of higher education in the Asian community.

My rambling answer hasn't completely answered your q as to why white wc boys aren't thriving. However, it provides a bit of background as to why the Asian community has instead.

In the UK and in Australia (to a very slightly lesser extent) there is a multigenerational feeling that education and career goals don’t matter or there’s no point as the government will look after you. There is also an attitude of not getting ideas beyond your station - they will be quickly slapped down. If someone wants to work they will be shamed for acting better than others.

I work in a hugely diverse high school.
At weekends and holidays, I have to remind our Ukrainian kids to have a rest, and not study too hard.
Many of our homegrown just don’t have the same work ethic or aspirations! They also find it much harder to take responsibility for anything. It’s carried on through the generations of their families.

No, there's no money thrown at Blackpool. Or Burnley. Or Blackburn. Or Bradford. Or Bacup. Or Bolton.

All Northern working class towns.

Interesting thread.

I do think there's an aspect of not being quite disadvantaged enough - but if you're African, from Nigeria or wherever, where things are really tough, it's pure determination and desperation that drives you.

Working class white lads do not have that level of desperation. Yes. It's bad, there no opportunities, and the standard of education is perhaps poor, but it's far, far superior to what you get in other countries.

I say this in no way to benefit bash - it's more of a subconscious knowledge of a safety net.

It used to be the same in the UK 100 years ago - no state welfare. You had to make your own luck, money and fortune, mostly by hard work, if you were working class.

I was thinking a little along those lines. Geography and lost industry, so once productive communities lose pride and the means to sustain working populations. And as you say - lack of social investment for those who are left behind. As another poster mentioned I wonder too if immigrant communities have been generally hit less by this, maybe more agile and resilient to change. But that’s a massive assumption.
I think it’s been the case across the 20th century that there’s been an uneasy mix of socialism and fascism alongside poverty and working class communities - think Mosely in the East End between the wars for example.
its certainly true that the most impoverished in society have always been blamed as well as pitied for their predicament.

Is anyone going to mention Thatcher? Privatisation leading to lack of jobs. The elite old boys network deciding where the money should go. Lack of investment in cities. Horrific government's dishing out contracts to USA so lack of jobs and prospects. Everything is imported, no industry left, coalmines shut, other industries closed down resulting in lack of jobs, lack of family, community and social support, increase in mental health issues, the list goes on. It really isn't just about race and really isn't as simple as that!

I would be interested to hear your source for these assumptions, and I do hope that you know that Caribbeans are Christian by default.

Not only do those that attend church on Sunday go "all dressed up" but they will spend the entire day there in multi hour services, have bible sessions on weekdays, and give 10% of their income to the church. Within this section of the community, they very much frown on sex before marriage as well as separation and divorce.

There are of course those that don't attend church with different values.

Just as we are discussing underperformance of white English working class boys as opposed to "white English boys" because white English boys from higher socio-economic classes are flourishing, we cannot describe Afro-Caribbean British families as a monolith.

Within the Afro-Caribbean British community there are working class, middle class, religious, atheist, 1st generation, 3rd generation, city dwellers, suburban dwellers - as with any community.

Specificity is a requirement in conversations like these, if the goal is to better understand the phenomenon as opposed to therapeutic venting.

Probably because society tells them that they can use their white privilege to play victim.

White WC boys had white WC fathers who seem to think the world owes them. The racism at my school is horrific and until this cycle gets broken in will continue. I hear the boys in my class moan because of "the illegals" taking their dad's jobs. The dad that's never worked a day in his life, like his dad before him. Women are to blame for their failings too. The way they speak about girls their own age is disgusting - the sexual expectations are scary