To wonder why working class white boys do worse than any other ethnic group, and how we can change this?

Yes this is very true. It’s why coal-mining towns in Yorkshire and Wales are still generally impoverished. It’s also why the North East remains to be the more impoverished pocket of the UK.

Until the destruction of much of industry and things such as coal mining in the 1980s, there was a path to employment for those who were not academic, and there was an element of dads being able to get their sons a job in say their place of work.

I think that ending has a bearing.

I went to white wc primary school. It was good. I then went to grammar school, which encouraged aspiration. In those days grammars were for clever white wc kids. Not middle class parents gaming the 11+ with private tutors. People simply don't understand what the grammar system used to be.
I have also taught white wc boys. They were lovely- but drove me insane. They are often let down by the school system- arriving in college with undiagnosed dyslexia etc.
And there is the macho thing. They don't want to be seen as having a learning difficulty. It's considered a weakness. They don't want to be seen as a,swot, taking an active part in lessons. Lots are disruptive in order to mask their difficulty. Some were really well behaved and tried really hard, but lacked the cultural capital.
Their parents were less likely to read to them as children. They were less likely to have been places and done stuff.
White working class girls. Omg. Some of the most vile students I've ever met

Lots of reasons. Sometimes lack of a strong male role model. People underestimate how vital this can be for boys but boys from single mother households fare worse generally.

A lot of the time it’s family influence- they just don’t value education so raise their children not to either. They don’t grow up with books, they’re not exposed to culture in any way, they’re just left to fend for themselves often with neglectful addicted or even criminal parents.

Also birds of a feather flock together. White working class boys hang out with each other, again they’re not exposed to other cultures or viewpoints.

The lack of expectation starts early - there was a report very recently, discussed on a thread on here too, about the steep rise in the number of reception kids entering school with no basic life skills. Not eating with utensils, not toilet trained, no idea how to even look at a book. This was over and above SEND issues. It reported that the steepest declines were in the North-east, West-midlands and north-west.
It identifies the problem as starting well before the classroom.

When my DD sat out of catchment 11+ for a particular girls school, it was largely South Asian, East Asian, and Black families in the queue waiting to file into the exam hall - yet this town is 70% white British.

Considering that their child would have to commute or the whole family would have to relocate to accept a place if awarded, this may be a barometer of parental academic aspiration and focus within these communities.

Caribbean families go to mosque, do they? 🤦🏻‍♀️

Frank Field did a big report on this for David Cameron - I’ll try to find the link.

I think a few things. Firstly, immigrants are a self-selecting group. They’ve looked at their situation and decided it is better to seek a new life abroad. That means there is a high degree of motivation and it is likely to be reflected in their aspirations for their children and what they teach their children about life.

For white working families the situation is likely to be complex but I agree with the PP above about pockets of deprivation in former industrialised areas.

The other thing to consider is undiagnosed neurodiversity. We know, for example, ADHD is genetic. We know that diagnosis is very hard without money. I think what you’re likely to see is generations of families which have learned that “school doesn’t suit us” who view it as something to be got through and not something likely to lead to a better life.

Once the whole family is on benefits it becomes entrenched - although Iain Duncan Smith did some interesting work on social justice after losing his seat with a report which suggested it only took one member of a wider family getting a job for that to have an impact on all the children in that family.

It's basically that other paths open to them have disappeared. Nobody really succeeds based on school alone, it's what you do afterwards, and apprenticeships etc are hard to come by. They're not following in their dads' footsteps in work because their dads are in the same boat. The gaps have never been filled.

does this take the cultural and educational background of immigrants pre-immigration into account?

Somebody may be classed as „working class“ in the UK. But they may have had a prestigious academic or professional background in their country of origin, which would most likely continue to affect their attitude to education and how they’re raising their children.

There was a thread recently about DC going on UC automatically after school. The OP thought this was an odd intention, but many felt why should the DC struggle or take a job they don't want. The benefit system gets a lot of bashing, but compared to many countries it's a lovely cushion rather than just a safety net.

It's so complex and there are many reasons, partly because the current curriculum only celebrates academic achievement, and as a pp said even traditional vocational routes require passes in maths now.

I think also it's a massive cultural difference. Many white working class areas are areas which experienced industrial decline and subsequent regeneration so, slum clwarance and relocation failed high rise tower blocks, modern regeneration schemes. In all of this traditional communities have been fractured for example church, pubs, sports teams etc. Over time I think this has massively dilited community pride and peer pressure in white working class communities. The days of older ladies washing their front step and scornful comments about the neighbours net curtains and giving the local kids a clip round the ear are long gone and in these communities.

Many more recent migrant groups may still bring that sense of compliance, pride or respect for authority from their home region where culture is very different, perhaps they are used to a more controlling government or prehaps more church / religious involvement. As a teacher I find parents very different even from Eastern Europe who are often much more respectful and whose children are much more respectful of authority.

Parents from all white british backgrounds can quite hostile or entitled towards staff in education now, I don't really blame them, constant government meddling has created a system which is not fit for purpose and they want something which works for their child. For white working class boys there is often just no engagement if they come from a single parent family with a mother, who is often scared of them, or there is a very angry father whose own poor experience with the education system colours his views. It basically results in kids who won't respect authority and therefore just comply and end up with a good outcome and most who also lack the intrinsic motivation that middle class kids have. As someone said earlier girls mature earlier and are generally more aspirational anyway so they often develop that intrinsic motivation in time.

This.

It’s not the school’s fault. It’s their families and their wider community.

If everyone around you doesn’t care about education, has superficial values, doesn’t promote hard work then it’s going to impact the effort you make in school. Girls may be more likely to want to please teachers and conform so are less likely to be affected.

We knew a boy who was a pain in the arse and disruptive for different reasons - he had wimpy, drippy parents who didn’t set boundaries. In the end it was his friends who stepped up and told him to stop being annoying.

The kinds of local industries they would have worked in have gone. Also, working class white males seem to be the only group it’s fine to be absolutely vile about.

Agreed. Also did GCSE sociology back in the day. But that’s an aside. It’s not a new issue. We have to question a society that allows this to happen. These families know they have a safety net in the welfare state. If you have no backup, you work harder. Look how many immigrants flourished with the great American Dream. But there was a necessity there, no benefits if you were on the bones of your backside. It’s is an issue that is more prevalent in the north, but the north is hardly a barren wasteland. Having grown up in a northern town, the opportunities were still there. Some people just chose not to take them.

Many immigrants are highly aspirational and want better for their children. It’s about expectations OP.
Maybe black and Asian parents are stricter? (Huge generalisation obvs)

Immigrants are strong people who have often fled dangerous situations - they are hard working (if maybe not formally educated) and can see the benefits of education for their kids.

Or maybe the determination and drive to progress and improve themselves evident in first generation immigrants gets diluted the more generations are born here.

There is probably also something in the explanation of how hard it was for the first generation to emmigrate and how poor they were.

I know my dad came in 50s as part of a drive to get more steel workers. My dad worked hard all his life and contributed to society but he did not really value education and thought university a waste of time. He came from real deprivation and dire poverty, lots of unimaginable trauma before he was 10.

My mothers family was poor but not the same levrl, she did not go to school past 14 but she had wanted to, but they could not afford it.

My mother was the one who supported me and my siblings in going to university if we wanted to . She had to actively fight my dad in it, especially as we were all girl. My dad saw educating us as a waste of time

Maybe many of the the white working class boys come from backgrounds where noone thinks education is worthwhile for them.

I

You can throw as many tools as you like at people, but they have to be willing to receive them and do their part. Often the victimisation complex is so deeply entrenched that it's a lost cause from day 1.
I live in the heart of a very white working class area. Very high levels of social housing, the sort of area where people's grandparents also lived in the street when they were young and siblings are neighbours. Until you see it for yourself, it's very hard to fathom that the mentality of the parents is not always set up to strive for their DC. Priorities can be very different. There are women's centres here that offer a lot of free courses, from functional skills right up to foundation degree. Uptake is low from locals and women (predominantly immigrant) then come in from outside the locality to avail of these services. The centres are delighted about this as they have to have numbers to justify their funding, but locals are furious and say their DC will never get the same chances the "illegals" get. It's a never ending circuit really.

This really isn’t a new issue at all. We studied it in sociology in my gcse and a levels so over 20 years ago! Literally talked about white boys in education. One reason that came straight to my mind was the theory white families have less emphasis on the importance of education than other cultures /races. If you think I was studying this 20 years ago many of the boys back then will now be dads, these boys were let down by the education system then so they may not promote the idea of education as it didn’t serve them and the cycle continues. There’s a multitude of theories as to why

I think you’re a bit behind as to what apprenticeships are like now. Many are harder to get in than into uni, entrance requirements are high and they can be for all sorts of things- engineering, IT etc. The beauty of them is you get on the job skills and a full cv as opposed to a degree the same as everybody else, debt and nothing to go on your cv. There is a reason people push them, they’re highly desirable.

I’m a music tutor I visit schools and people’s homes. I see all sorts of families. For nearly all my students the white parents are far far less engaged with their children than non-white parents.

In my area it is white with boys and when you drill down in to black as a group the black carribbean subset can have similar outcomes . There was a great project that targeted the at risk groups with mentors and tutoring but its expensive to run and it eventually lost funding so had to fight for charitable donations making it much harder for the staff sadly.

I don't think people say it to avoid the importance of academic exams.

They say it because:

• they can't get a plumber for love nor money
• they have to pay £400 to a plumber for a days work because the lack of plumbers means they can charge the earth
• they can see that plumbers are useful, necessary and won't be replaced by AI
• they themselves struggle with corporates/professional jobs demanding longer and longer hours and less flexibility, while self employed people set their own hours (loads i use start early but finish at 4 or so & go to collect their kids).

I’m from a council estate, went to council estate schools and also work in them. The difference from when I went in the 80’s/90’s is unbelievable. There is just so much violence, threatening language, racism and misogyny. One school I was in had over 70% PP. There was a lot of supply teachers and TA’s. Most would do a day and then never come back even if they’d originally committed to longer.

There was roughly 5-10 children moving to other schools each week and the equivalent starting, so lots of classroom disruption. The difference between the parents was astounding. The local white (I can’t call them working class as the majority have never worked) parents didn’t give much of a shit about education. They weren’t bothered about getting their children there on time, attendance, homework and didn’t see the point. I was local to this school and would sometimes be on the bus listening to the parents conversations.

I’ve seen fights break out between parents on buses. Full on arguments that have carried on onto the street. 3 mums after dropping their children off, got on the bus and were getting each other riled up about one of the other mums as she’d not let her daughter stay at one of their houses due to them having their recently released from prison and on the paedo register brother staying there. They were saying she was stuck up and were off to her house to teach her a lesson. There wasn’t many good examples of parenting around. My mum went to this school and it was nothing like it back then. There just seems to be this expectation that the world owes them everything.

I will just add that not all of the white local parents were unemployed and like the above. There were just so many that they are the ones that stand out.

This is absolutely it, obviously the media is doing its best to portray migrants as feckless scroungers, but reality is these are the families who had the determination to try for a better life.

The theory also applies to other situations. When I lived in London I knew lots of Aussies, they were all in professional roles, liked to travel, outgoing etc. When I visited Australia I quickly realised this was a very narrow snapshot of the population!

Do you think there’s an element of that thing where kids are sweethearts when they go to a friend’s house but complete lazy shits to their own parents?