AIBU to think Merlin Ride Access passes are unfairly judged?

So do you mean virtual queuing for all rides or just the big ones? If 80% of the parks capacity is in a virtual queue then they are also all now trying to ride the smaller rides. So the queues for the smaller rides are now absolutely huge. So disabled people will then be complaining they can’t queue for those and will be asking for a RAP for the smaller rides!

I’m also going to copy and paste what I wrote a while back about why a full virtual queue system just couldn’t work.

Why can’t everyone use a virtual queue for every ride? It just wouldn’t work. As the poster above says, where would all these people go? If you average 1 ride an hour for an 8 hour day you’ll spend at least 45 minutes of each hour in a queue for each ride. The rest of the time will be walking between rides or quickly popping to the loo or to get food. If you now don’t queue, for each hour you only queue and ride for maybe 15 minutes max. What are you doing for the other 45 minutes? Which is about 6 hours in a day!! What are thousands of people going to be doing?? Just sitting about? Where? Should they build massive waiting benches? Or a big school hall type place where you just “wait” until your next ride? Yes you can walk about a bit and maybe get some food. But not for 6 hours! So they build more things to do. Like the fun fair games they have already. Now you have thousands of people all queuing for these games. But the disabled people can’t access them because they can’t queue for the length of time it takes. So what? We now bring back RAP so they can get to the front of those queues? Because all you’ve done is move the ride queues to another place.
The other issue would be capacity for virtual queues. Are people allowed to book more than one slot per ride? Or are you limited to one each per ride? What if your favourite ride or two are sold out but you already have entry tickets booked? Waste of money there. What if an autistic child or adult only wants to ride Nemesis over and over all day. It’s their favourite ride. But all but one slot is taken. And oh dear the ride broke down at the point. Bad luck. They don’t get to ride it at all that day now.

So it really isn’t as simple as “let’s make it equal for everyone so no one complains”. Theme parks are a business. They are there to make money. If they severely reduce capacity they’ll likely end up going under or just closing because who would bother running a business for no profit. If they reduce capacity for RAP they’ll get complaints. If they make an entire virtual queue system they’ll just move the thousands of people to another “queue” for something else while they wait. Whether that’s games or a play park or smaller rides. They physically wouldn’t have enough seats for everyone so disabled people would want priority for those. So there would still be complaints. Honestly there’s a reason the theme park model is pretty much exactly the same the world over. It works most of the time.

The parks use the queues as holding places for customers. If they use a virtual system they would have to reduce capicity as there wouldn't be enough room for all the people who would have been in queues.

It is ultimately a capacity and park management issue.

Some parks oversell their capacity, then upsell fast track making lines very long. Some parks will allow one person with a RAP to take multiple guests with them on the ride meaning in some cases half the ride is full of RAP and their guests. Not all rides are well managed so sometimes full trains are sent round full of fast track and RAP users whilst people have been queueing.

Parks would be far better allowing all guests virtual queuing but that would hit their fast track pass sales and abolishing RAP. Instead offering SEND days. This way people could virtually queue for rides but also ride less popular rides and do things like eat lunch whilst waiting. This is where lots of people feel injustice as with virtual queuing you can queue for one ride but ride other rides with shorter wait times or have lunch and you have not wasted that 90 mins. It would still be inclusive if all guests had virtual queuing.

The problem with the RAP is there is a whole well known section on the internet dedicated to explaining how to game the system to get one, although recently they have tightened up. Then how to "make the most of them" by stacking rides on multiple RAPs, taking on multiple "carers" with them, scanning in and riding other rides whilst waiting and other "hacks". Then there are the people who have them that "pimp" themselves out for a cost allowing someone to be their guest.

I agree the person and their loved ones should be the cornerstone of everything to do with a disabled persons care but we are talking about a business and a system which has been abused.

If somebody cannot walk very far or stand for a long period of time and are offered a wheelchair which would meet that need. They shouldn't then be abke to say no because they prefer the RAP which would also meet their needs but means they don't have to sit in the queues like everyone else.

I fully understand it, I would prefer RAP too and can see the argument of even if a queue can take wheelchairs maybe it's not the best pmace for their users (exiting in an emergency, people nearly sitting on them because they stand so close or worse nend over them so their bum is in their face). Wheelchairs are what Disney US advise people with physical needs to use as a way of meeting their needs rather than offering DAS to them as this means they can then go in the main queues.

There are many ways that I would prefer my sons needs to be met but those aren't the adjustments offered by businesses. It isn't about giving the person what they want it's about meeting their need.

I'm not suggesting we keep the same situation,

• we tighten up the process and increase the threshold, keeping it need rather than condition based.

• Blocking the use of multiple passes per family - the abuse with this is crazy - I saw a family using 3 passes so no wait

-We reduce the number available so all RAP queues are shorter, and implement a priority system - where those who haven't been able to get a RAP pass in the last X amount of time get priority, and it opens to everyone else 48 hours before.

-Limited number of rides per day per RAP/limited goes on the most popular rides

-The old RAP system at legoland and chessington worked much better - it only let a certain number people request RAP per ride, and once that number reached it stopped people booking on it. I could check if before walking across the park to a ride, and queues were much shorter than now.

'Reasonable adjustments don't have to be what the disabled person wants' - really? Involving disabled people and/or their families in decisions around what works for them is a cornerstone of effective care and support - what is the point of giving someone something which doesn't actually meet their needs?

Sorry for the many posts..
In regards to health care letters, they did previously accept these before they contracted out nimbus. However what was happening was people were making letters at home or using their friends letter. There were facebook groups discussing how to do it. So no healthcare letters aren't a good idea.

Disney made the changes because of the abuse of the system. People were hiring themselves out for others to take with them to get use of their DAS.

RAP can't just be given to everyone who says they need it as it defeats it's purpose. At the moment the system doesn't work and there is huge amounts of abuse.

But then you're back to the same situation we're in now.

Reasonable adjustments don't have to be what the disabled person wants. Ultimately if they did make all the queues accessible they could implement that (I don't think they'll change the queue lines, tbey don't even make queues for new rides accessible).

Not all make a wish kids are on palliative care. They get better access than DAS while on their MAW trip but disney applies the same rules to children as everybody else.

Yes I agree parents of small children should make decisions in the childs best interests and take other factors into account, this doesn't happen though.

If somebody genuinely can't queue then they would have problems in wider society not just theme parks. Social care or a blue badge is the best way of restricting RAP to those who really need it.

Blue badges can be given without meeting the automatic qualification. People can apply to the LA directly.

Disney have made it need specific. They've just made different adjustments for different people depending on need.

I think that's terrible that they don't make allowances for other disabilities, especially palliative. I think we need to get away from it being condition specific, and make it need specific.

No, a wheelchair is not a reasonable adjustment for me, it disables me more, when the aim of adjustments is to reduce the impact of disabilities on a person's daily life.

In terms of decision making - if we are talking about a child needing the DAS - the same could be said - their parents are making the decision based on knowledge about what the trip involves. I dont believe they should be denied that opportunity, bit I also believe physical and medical disabilities have equal validity in terms of gaining access.

Toileting- an adult with crohns takes 2 young children on their own - who will hold the place in the queue?

Not everyone who needs RAP is known to social care or meets threshold for a blue badge. It could be a letter from social care yes, but letters from health professionals are equally valid.

Just to add Disney do offer other accomodations such as return to queue (if you need to leave the queue then come back) or for the majority of the party to queue then the person with needs plus one other can join them near the front.

I think letters would cause an issue as people may have to pay for them and some dr's can be very helpful in this regard.

I think a social care letter/ assessment or a blue badge would be the best proof. As bb's can be given by LA's for non physical conditions as well as physical and the majority of people who genuinely struggle to queue because of cognitive needs generally have some sort of social care intervention as they'll have that struggle not just in theme parks.

I think a person should be allowed out of the queue for the toilet and then to return to the rest of their party.

I take your point about not all people with physical disabilities using a wheelchair but using a wheelchair is a reasonable adjustment for the majority of people who physically can't stand for long periods of time.

This has been implemented in the Disney US parks who now heavily restrict their disability pass to mainly people with severe autism/ ld. Physical disabilities, diabetes, cancer, crohns etc don't qualify. Even some children who have been make a wish don't qualify for DAS under the new criteria. You have to be interviewed for the DAS and possibly passed to a 'medical prof' during the interview. You can only apply for it twice in six months, if you're turned down on both tries you can't ask again. The logic being that people make the decision to go to their parks knowing about weather, heat, toileting needs, queues etc people with severe cognitive needs don't make these decisions for themselves and don't understand the concept of queuing. I think Disney in the US have it right to be honest.

Physical disabilities doesn't only mean those in wheelchairs. I have arthritis and struggle to stand more than 5-10 mins, it causes a lot if pain and then I struggle to continue with our day.

What they actually need to do is place a limit on number of visits during peak times - each user gets a specific number of peak visits (weekends and school holidays) and unlimited/a larger number of off peak visits. Which would reduce overall numbers and RAP queue lengths. I know people will claim that is discrimination too, and they are right, but the current RAP system is not workable for those of us who truly cannot queue. Those who can queue (although not queue an hour plus)are getting to go and those who really can't are not.

They also need to tighten up the criteria away from diagnosis - my daughters friend has adhd, they can queue fine. My daughter has ASD, she can queue, my friends son has ASD, he really can't. It should require a specific letter saying why -"'Millie can't queue due to a bowel condition which means she has to go urgently' 'Alex can't queue as he finds waiting very challenging due to his ASD and will self harm if made to wait longer than X number of minutes'

I completely agree it's awful. I don't think the nimbus access card has helped either. It's too easy for people to get the queuing symbol especially when they pay the £15 for the card.

In an ideal world all the lines would be wheelchair accessible which would remove those with physical disabilities from RAP to reduce numbers but I don't believe this is the real issue.

On Wickerman's opening day the RAP queue was three hours! We went to a different theme park to take advantage of those going to AT. All of the people in that queue should have had RAP removed as they've proven they can wait.

It's totally abused. It really does need restricting. Those who stood there and watched whilst client had a meltdown due to the RAP queue who really should and can queue are pathetic, selfish and disgust me. It needs a proper new approach.

"If a person truly cannot wait in a 30 minute queue, having a pass that allows you to bypass the 120 min queue but puts you in a 30 min queue instead is pointless. You still cannot wait for that time and as a result cannot access the ride."

I agree.

I have worked with individuals who really cannot queue. Fifteen years ago we could visit and use disability passes. We can no longer visit since the queues of people who are 'unable to queue' are too long. Many of these individuals really cannot wait and will start by showing signs of distress, noises, fidgeting and then slapping and hitting this escalates to grabbing and more extreme noises. Meanwhile the 'chancers' using the passes to access more rides in the way you have shown get what they want. The more severely disabled as in terms of waiting miss out and no longer attend - the behaviours are much too challenging to manage however to see the delight on the faces of some of my clients on a super fast ride is amazing and sadly due to selfish people who can queue perfectly well and others who abuse passes these clients stay away. It's extremely sad and again points to the unequalness of society. Something good a RAP now abused so much that many of the people that GENUIENLY need them miss out.

Merlin did try to restrict RAP earlier this year but there was a huge backlash due to the numbet of people who then wouldn't have been eligable. I think they should have restricted it.

The system is obviously abused.

I agree with this.

We visited Alton Towers and obtained a ride access pass for adult with severe learning disabilities/complex behaviours/autism. She really cannot queue. Joined the RAP queue and she started hitting herself since standing still with lots of others in front. 'Disabled' people in said queue turning to look in shock. Other carer said she is disabled and struggles with any waiting. Person in front who was very calm, verbal, physically able, said 'yeah we all do but we don't behave like that'...... there are different ways disabilities present and some individuals REALLY DO STRUGGLE WITH WAITING and the behaviours indicate that whilst others just happily wait and chat away.

They need to be more restricted to the more disabled members of society. The care plan said we couldn't take her again although she loves rides because the self harm inflicated whilst waiting next to people who are very able to queue is too much. So she misses out due to people who really can queue making the queue longer.

They are extremely easy to get.

I always suspected the RAP is a con, as the queue is 90% filled with healthy (dare I say 'normal'?) looking people. And I know not all disabilities are visible, but if you believe the overwhelming majority of RAP riders actually have an issue queuing, I have a bridge to sell you.

Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't actually checked out the RAP line. I defy anyone to actually look at the riders and still believe they're mostly incapable of waiting in line.

Anyway, my DC recently received a diagnosis of ADHD. While their condition caused them issues in school, namely disrupting the class etc, they have never had an issue with queuing. In fact, apart from specific difficulties ADHD brings, they are to all intents and purposes a regular and extremely capable child.

But seeing as RAP exists, my DC decided to take advantage of their diagnosis and apply for a Nimbus card. It took all of 5 minutes answering some questions, and the only evidence they had to supply was the doctor's letter of diagnosis. And now my DC who is perfectly capable of queuing, and always has queued, can skip the queue together with a handful of friends.

Ok I shall explain it all again.

Firstly, when these passes were first introduced I never really heard any/many complaints. They allowed disabled people to skip the queues and so have access to the same rides as everyone else. However, over time, the numbers of people applying for these passes were getting higher and higher. This resulted in the RAP queues getting bigger and bigger. This resulted in complaints from some people using the passes (not just those in standard queues) that they could now not access the rides. If a person truly cannot wait in a 30 minute queue, having a pass that allows you to bypass the 120 min queue but puts you in a 30 min queue instead is pointless. You still cannot wait for that time and as a result cannot access the ride.

The pass is not a virtual queue as such. It just times you out before you can use it again. So if you go on a ride with a 2 hour queue, you skip the standard line but after that cannot access another ride USING THE PASS for 2 hours. You can however access other rides/attractions/food in that time. So those who can queue for shorter periods will be off doing other rides while their pass is timed out. Some families/groups of friends can use a loophole if they have 2 or more children (or adults) who need a pass. You alternate which pass you use meaning you access at least double the rides of everyone else in the park. Again this not only contributes to the standard queue waiting time, it also contributes to the RAP queues. There’s been someone explaining above how they use the pass for the family of 4 to go on a ride, and while it’s timed out she sits down and her husband takes the children in the standard queues. This family are able to access double the rides in the park that a family without a pass can. You could for example have 4 teenagers all with a pass each just rotating which one they use so all 4 never have to queue all day for anything.

Because of these types of things happening, the passes are seen as a “benefit” as they do absolutely give you a better experience by getting on more rides. This means more people try and play the system by getting passes they may not really need. This increases the numbers using them. Which goes back to point one that those who truly cannot queue at all now still cannot access the rides.

Some theme parks have tried to resolve the issue of the sheer numbers of people wanting the passes. But everything they try gets shot down. Currently they restrict the number of passes that can be given away in a day. This still causes issues for those with disabilities that cannot plan far in advance. By the time they know they can go, the passes are all sold out. But you cannot have unlimited passes as the numbers are so huge the queues would be massive and the point of the passes would be gone.

Why can’t everyone use a virtual queue for every ride? It just wouldn’t work. As the poster above says, where would all these people go? If you average 1 ride an hour for an 8 hour day you’ll spend at least 45 minutes of each hour in a queue for each ride. The rest of the time will be walking between rides or quickly popping to the loo or to get food. If you now don’t queue, for each hour you only queue and ride for maybe 15 minutes max. What are you doing for the other 45 minutes? Which is about 6 hours in a day!! What are thousands of people going to be doing?? Just sitting about? Where? Should they build massive benches? Or a big school hall type place where you just “wait” until your next ride? Yes you can walk about a bit and maybe get some food. But not for 6 hours! So they build more things to do. Like the fun fair games they have already. Now you have thousands of people all queuing for these games. But the disabled people can’t access them because they can’t queue for the length of time it takes. So what? We now bring back RAP so they can get to the front of those queues? Because all you’ve done is move the ride queues to another place.

The other issue would be capacity for virtual queues. Are people allowed to book more than one slot per ride? Or are you limited to one each per ride? What if your favourite ride or two are sold out but you already have entry tickets booked? Waste of money there. What if an autistic child or adult only wants to ride Nemesis over and over all day. It’s their favourite ride. But all but one slot is taken. And oh dear the ride broke down at the point. Bad luck. They don’t get to ride it at all that day now. Never mind eh.

There’s a reason most theme parks operate the same way the world over. Yes some are run better than others. Some are quieter than others. But a large majority, especially in the UK and Disney parks are struggling with the sheer volume of RAP being needed. That’s the facts. If there was a simple answer like is suggested here (while still making money, because despite what people seem to think, they are still a business) they would have done it already.

Virtual queues wouldn't work at somewhere like Alton Towers, Thorpe or Chessington etc. Their capacity and offerings are worked out including people being "held" in the queue lines.

If on any given day for example:-
Smiler has an hour queue
Galactica, Nemesis, 13, Rita and Bluey have 40 or 50 mins
Wickerman has an hour

The people who would be in those queues are now accessing cafe's, arcades, walking around etc that's a lot of extra people for the general grounds to accomodate and occupy. (I'm aware AT has massive gardens and some people may choosse to explore them but the majority wouldn't and some can't physically access them. The example can be copied over to Thorpe, Chessington or Legoland which don't have gardens and already feel squeezed in Summer just walking around).

Imagine a day at say Alton towers where we were all in virtual queues. Sat 2 adults. No additional needs.

we’d go on say 9 rides in 9 hours. So 15 mins to queue and ride.
what would we do for the other time? Just sit on the grass? In the uk rain? Sit in a cafe? Is there one big enough for 10000 people?

virtual queues work for say a water park like universal as everyone has a lounger to base at and can enjoy the sun or pool whilst waiting.
but just sitting around a cold uk theme park all day would not be a fun experience at all.

It's perfectly possible to eat lunch in the queue anyway if you bring a packed lunch!

I'm surprised some posters have only seen people with invisible disabilities in the RAP queues. When I've been I have definitely seen people with physical disabilities and obvious learning disabilities. Quite often I see children or adults with noise cancelling headphones, fidget toys etc too.

I notice because I often feel like a bit of a fraud with my child who looks and behaves if you saw them in a queue for 10 minutes as if they have no impairments. But it's like a ticking time bomb, there is no telling when or if we may have to abandon ship (or should I say queue) due to DC needs.

There are I think other people who "need" RAP more than my DC. But rides are one of the few things that bring my child joy in a world that's tough for them.

Because then everyone would be wandering around the park instead of standing in a queue, out of the way. The beauty of them is that you can do something else during the 'time out'. So you can have your lunch during the time you'd be waiting in a queue. Except you're not in a queue, you're having your lunch.

Funnily enough you have again bothered replying. You can of course reply to anyone you want in any way that you want but it does seem like quite a waste of energy to reply to a post just to say that you don't really want to reply. Besides, just like you I can post and read whatever I want. However, I really am curious now: why are you bothering to engage with me at all? (In case you are curious why I am replying it is because I've got to put the shopping away, clean the kitchen and hang up clothes, and this exchange pointless as it is, is kind of more fun than doing chores.

I have looked up these passes and though the merlin website seems to be shockingly bad (looks like they are following your style of answering questions without answering) from what I understand I am correct. These passes allow you to join a queue without having to physically stand in it. So I don't think they are big problem and I don't think anyone should object to them. They seem to make a lot of sense. In fact I wonder why they can't use the same system for everyone.

As I said, I, and many others, have already answered your question. If you can’t be bothered to read the thread then that’s fine. But why bother engaging in the first place? Do you think no one in the 14 pages has asked it? If you can’t be bothered to read it then I can’t be bothered to answer it. If you’re happier thinking you’re right then go ahead. I suspect that’s what most people do anyway even when they do get an answer as they don’t come back.