To think the junior / resident doctors are greedy, selfish, entitled & lazy?

Eh? That’s not a tax fiddle. It’s how every public sector worker is paid. Are you saying nurses are on a tax fiddle because they don’t pay as much tax as the salary they earn? And teachers? And dustbin men? How do you work that out?

Well bugger me Imdunfer - so that significant portion of my NHS salary that says PAYE is not the same tax that everyone else pays?

What utter utter crap - I get paid like everyone else private sector, state etc and I pay tax on my earnings exactly like everyone else does.

Please tell me how every NHS worker does not pay tax ina any meaningful sense

@MeetMeOnTheCorner I don’t disagree that we could/should expect more productivity. A decent way to achieve this would be reducing public sector reliance on private sub-contracting. Eg having to pay a private company to change a lightbulb in a school/hospital rather than just having a janitor or internal housekeeping/ estates staff. The money and time wasted by these private sub-contractors is frankly outrageous.

I don't think they're lazy or selfish at all and I think anyone who would think that has no understanding of the role of a resident doctor. Also for all their who say the money "isn't there" it's funny how the government magically up the money to pay private hospital contracts mega bucks to carry out NHS work isn't it? There very clearly is enough money to pay resident doctors a fair wage, it's a political choice not to.

@cafeconron We would save a lot in government expenditure with a smaller public sector. Tax take is a fraction of the expense! Add in NI, pension contributions and other employee costs and of course the public sector costs more! It’s even worse because they are not productive. The money spent doesn’t buy good productivity. It’s way below the private sector. We should expect the public sector to be far more productive!

You wouldn't pay more. They would be paid net of tax, anything else would be a huge salary increase.

You have not understood. No tax paid by someone paid from taxation adds to the total tax revenue of the country.

Ok, if you want to look at it that way then Drs (and other public sector workers) paying tax from their wages does reduce the amount that has to be put in by others to cover the overall cost of public services though. IE, if they didn’t pay tax you’d pay more. A lot more.

And, because I can see your next ‘argument’ coming - if education, refuse collection, police/fire/emergency services, care and health became private entities then you’d still be paying for them separately when you need them, and/or be at the mercy of profit making insurance companies etc, who will not be looking to charge you any less as they have to provide the same service, employee people doing the same jobs, fiddle their taxes so they pay stupidly low rates and give massive bonuses to their board/shareholders. So you can see how you will end up paying more unless you refuse to use any of these services. Let’s just look at Thames Water as a case study for how well private companies do in providing essential services…

You aren't correct.

The money has to start with from a capitalist selling something for more than it cost them to supply, or borrowing.

This has been said before by other people, but since you've repeated the statement I'll repeat the answer,

They don't pay tax in any meaningful sense, it's an accounting fiddle to make the taxation system easier.

What NHS doctors pay in tax does not add to the total money available to the public finances because it's paid to them out of money that was previously paid in by taxation on the private sector.

Id like to see you do 5 consecutive night shifts as an a&e doctor and tell me they aren’t workers.

yup, have had many nightshifts/weekend days like that (as an anaesthetist). Once operating gets starting out of hours you often can't drink because you won't be able to get to the the loo if that fluid does get as far as your kidneys. It's particularly charming when your a woman gifted with heavy monthly haemorrhages and get stuck working solo without being able to leave the room!

no. Staff grades/specialty docs/associate specialists are present in large numbers and do a huge amount of the work ...just no one on MN has ever heard of us. We're not junior/resident doctors, there are no plans to phase us out (and a lot of services would fall to bits if they did). Medical careers are, in reality, a bit more complex than most of the posts on this thread realise. SAS strike ballot is happening iirc in the next couple of months or so.

Nobody pays taxes that haven't ultimately been paid by someone else. Nobody magics money out of the air. It's a circle. Many private companies are funded by government grants or subsidised by "corporate welfare". And public sector employees spent their earnings in the public sector. This is such a strange understanding of the economy.

They do and they don't, because their wages are paid by other people's taxes, they in effect don't contribute anything in their own right because what taxes they do pay have ultimately been paid for by someone else beforehand.

Do you think doctors don't pay taxes? And just think, if they are earning considerably more than the "workers". they are paying considerably more taxes. Mind blowing, isn't it!

Doctors aren't "workers". The workers are the ones paying the taxes that pay the doctors wages. Most of whom earn considerably less than the Drs.

Solidarity always with workers fighting for better pay and conditions. I work in education and earn a tiny bit less than a new doctor. That's horrifying, cause my wages are shite and I'm barely responsible for anything never mind people's health and lives. Well done to them for knowing their worth and sticking to it, more of us should do the same. (Shame my union are a bit shit)

So very true. Well said.

Some shifts are like that, espec in ED

Gosh im so glad that at 18 when they held a gun to my head and forced me into my study and career path that I wasnt given doctor !

Wait?...A gun isnt held to doctors heads as theyre forced kicking and screaming into the years of study and job???

News to me the way they carry on.

The ones striking were bits of kids in 2008 they've lost fuck all.

But those same people have claimed on here that resident doctors don't have time to go to the toilet, don't have time for a break, don't have time for lunch, walk 20,000 steps a day, and don't have time even "to take a sip of water".

Seriously, do you think that is true?

@Whatisrichandhaveiearnedit Head teachers earn around what a consultant does. Deputy head, around the salary of a senior “resident” doctor. They have a clear career plan. Obviously management in nursing pays well too. They don’t have to be dead end jobs. Teachers don’t get overtime and enhanced payments for out of hours working. The Nuffield Trust says doctors make 27% extra from this. Then there’s the huge pensions. All public sector is better and salaries should be lower when the overall package is so good. Maybe they should try being self employed?

I think Greybeardey is complaining that I didn't express myself very well and was wrong.

I'm happy to accept what he says

See my reply to him a few minutes ago

In the normal course of things, you either do a virtuous job which doesn't have any expectation of high income (e.g. charity sector, teaching, nursing), or you do a high-paying job which doesn't come with any back-slapping for what a great guy / gal you are (e.g. C-suite business roles or commercial legal)

Exactly why should it be this way?
It’s partly what is wrong with society - the rewards and adulation go to the wrong professions and “jobs”. Mostly those that are self serving .

Thanks

Yes, I'm sure you're correct that there are still staff grades and associate specialists employed in the NHS.

What I was trying to explain - perhaps not very well - was what I understood to be the current medical career training structure and what was generally meant by the term "resident doctors".

My understanding - perhaps mistaken - is that staff grades etc are basically being phased out(?)

Would that be more acceptable and accurate?