Will antisemitism ever be looked at and dealt with in the same way as Islamophobia is?

In 1948 Palestinian Arabs couldn't declare a state because they couldn't organize themselves and unite to do so.

Fast forward to 2026 and Palestinians apparently cant hold elections because they can't organise themselves along democratic principles with the necessary institutions of state with one party winning and the other going into opposition.

They've had 78 years to build their state in waiting. Maybe if they'd focused on that rather than destroying another state and the 'glorious resistance', there would be a democratic Palestinian state along an Israeli one.

The free palestine lot are just as guilty. Easy enough to shout it but if they can't even hold elections to decide who governs them, how on earth will they be able to operate a state that won't immediately fail? Not qutie as sexy to shout 'build an independent and non corrupt Palestinian civil service' but that's actually the hard work that needs to happen.

Do you know how random probability sampling works? It doesn't matter the size of the study population (only if it's too small), whether its 2 million or 20 million or 200 million as long as the sample is selected at random. This is statistics 101.

There isn't one study, many surveys are carried out. Whether they are biased due to hamas being a cruel and repressive organisation is fair enough- yet it seems Gazans feel confident enough to express disapproval of Hamas in a way that West Bankers don't despite Hamas not ruling tbe West Bank so it's hardly north korean style surveillance

And my iranian friends often go back to visit, have friends and family in iran so I think I've got a pretty good idea of how tbey feel about being forced to wear hijab.

“Not officially like in Iran” is setting a very low bar though. Christians in Gaza have been oppressed by Islamists for years.
https://ucs.nd.edu/learn/palestine/

Well meeting Iranian women outside of Iran isn't really a point of reference for how women in Iran are living is it?

It's illegal to be gay in Pakistan, but telling me you've met someone outside of Pakistan, who was born there but is gay doesn't disprove the reality in Pakistan. So if you don't like disingenuity, that's probably not a good start.

Do you have any evidence for your claim that journalists are only not wearing hijab on camera and then putting it back on afterwards? Why would they post globally with no hijab, only to put it on in private if they're so worried about the consequences? I have also read the stories of people being punished for not wearing hijab - but then I've read stories about the IDF/the US army/the UK army doing things that don't fall in line with their official policies.

I've already answered the point about surveys. We can't put much stock in surveys carried out in places that punish dissent. I imagine Kim Jong Un is pretty popular in North Korean surveys too... However the latest survey I can find states that: Favorability of the October 7 attack, the belief that Hamas will win the war, and support for Hamas continue to decline, but the overwhelming majority is opposed to Hamas disarmament and does not believe that release of the hostages will bring an end to the war. Nonetheless, about half of Gazans support the anti-Hamas demonstrations and almost half want to leave the Gaza Strip if they could. Support for the two-state solution remains unchanged but support for armed struggle drops.

I presume this is the study you're referring to. It interviewed 440 people in Gaza, out of around two million, I'm not sure it's a particularly representative sample, even if we put full faith in the honesty of their views.

Obviously all the Iranian women I've met are outside of Iran and, no, not one wears hijab. They certainly aren't rebels but ordinary middle class Iranians. Iran isn't a lovely place for women due to the regime in place which is not supported by the people - hence why they need laws to wear hijab.

Hamas, in contrast, is very much representative of the conservative Islamic norms of Gazan society and all it implies for women's rights.

And those journalists (maybe one or two) probably jsut take off their hijab to report and put it on to go out - because consequences.

Yes, we do know how Gazans feel. Surveys have been carried out. Support for hamas among gazans has dropped post 7/10 but remained high in west bank. However that's more becuase of tbe disaster that it brought upon Gaza rather than anything moral outrage at Hamas' actions.

I can’t agree that it was disingenuous of MyLuckyHelper not to point out that the government voted in by the people of Palestine was a government of Islamist terrorists as that wasn’t quite the conversation we were having.

However, I do think it is a useful point to make to start to answer the question of the dynamic between the Hamas government and its citizens. Another piece of the jigsaw so the teaching in schools if children that Jews to are be hated and killed. Is that a Hamas mandate? Is that something many Palestinians freely participate in or is there resistance?

I looked it up and approx 22% of the population are old enough to have voted in the last election. As pp points out, they may have been between a rock and a hard place with their choices for government - they clearly didn’t like the previous administration but we can’t tell from elections if the current one has public support or not.

The bit that concerns me most is all the ‘pro Palestine’ protestors that appear to have vastly differing levels of understanding of the situation. We have the Islamists who explicitly support Hamas and their ains, and they are bolstered and sanitised by the ‘bekind, Israel are the evil aggressors and deliberately murdering Palestinian children for fun’ - which worryingly also seems to influence our government. The Islamist MPs are also pushing their agenda from inside government.

It is also a serious concern that some British MPs are being elected on a single issue that is nothing to do with British citizens.

Perhaps prior to October 2023, Gazans felt differently about Hamas. Who knows, we’ve got no evidence to tell us how they feel now have we.

What are the consequences for these journalists who are publically not wearing hijab? Given that they continue to do so on a daily basis - I can’t imagine it’s particularly effective.

It is literally law in Iran to wear hijab, with enforceable punishment. Of course you will have some that have rebelled - seems odd that every single Iranian woman you’ve met has been a rebel though. And where are you meeting them? That’s obviously relevant.

im not really sure what you’re trying to tell me with that argument anyway? Iran is a wonderful place for women to live and Gaza isn’t? I’m personally very grateful not to have been born in either.

There have been polls in Gaza and the west bank where there are international journalists. Prior to October 2023 there were also foreign journalists in gaza.

And no, women without hijab in gaza most certainly do have consequences. Iran is totally different to Gaza. I've met many iranian women and not one wears a hijab. That's why they need to enforce it by law and it is hated by iranian women. Not the case in Gaza where social pressure means women conform.

I didn’t say it’s representative. But they are doing it without consequence and they certainly wouldn’t be doing the same in Iran.

You might well be right that most believe in it (although ‘still’ would be misleading given that most wouldn’t have voted back in 2006) but where do you get your evidence for that, given that no independent journalists have been allowed and as far as I can tell they haven’t all been asked 🤷🏻‍♀️

Muslim women do not go out witjou4 hijab in Gaza other than a brave few. One or two journalists recording videos for social media without a hijab is in no way representative.

I appreciate some Gazans just wanted change from Fatah. Some were seduced by Hamas' promises. Most still believe in Hamas' aim to destroy israel - you know, this promise that has caused immeasurable damage to Palestinians for the last 80 odd years.

Whether they achieved their aims or not doesn’t really have any affect on why people voted did it? They were desperate for change and were under a useless government at the time.

Just like the people in Germany voting in the Nazis becuase they were fed up of life under life under the Weimar Republic. People weren’t voting based on what we now know would happen, they were reacting to their situation at the time.

It’s not disingenuous becuase I’m assuming anyone engaging in this discussion is aware of Hamas and who they are. The conversation was about the election and why people voted. Of course some will have voted because they agreed with their stance on religion & Israel, but not everyone will have and some will have voted for them in
spite of it.

I’m really not convinced you’re engaged enough with life in Gaza to know whether you’d need to be brave to be a non hijab wearer. There are plenty of female Gazan journalists who don’t wear hijab and have very public profiles.

It's disingenuous to leave out that people were voting for an Islamic extremist party. This is their key defining characteristic.

Its true that three is now law enforcing hijab because they don't need it (unlike iran). In gaza, itd be a brave Muslim woman who wouldn't wear a hijab these days given the intimidation she'd face . Social policies don't necessarily mean enforcement by law.

And I can tell you that, no, they didn't achieve their aims. All the money that could have gone to supporting poor widows went to building tunnels and buying arms to attack israel. Plus the billionaire lifestyles of the leadership in Qatar.

Oh and @balabusta when I said they campaigned on social policies - I meant those like financial support for poor families, windows and orphans, improving healthcare & investing in schools and universities.

am I saying they achieved it/were honest? No. I have no knowledge in that area to be honest, but that’s what they set out and people were desperate for change from Fatah, which is inevitably how elections are won anywhere isnt it when a country isn’t having a good time…see also the Nazi party

Just to be clear, I’m well aware of Hamas’ stance on Israel.

Whats interesting about me not referring to them as an extremist religious organisation? I presume everyone on this thread would know that already? Do I also need to explain who Israel are for people? A poster expressed an interest in the elections and the relationship between the general Palestinian population & Hamas - on which I had a touch of knowledge due to having researched it myself during the last few months, so I responded.

oh sorry, I missed the hijab comment, there’s certainly no law in Gaza enforcing the hijab at present. There are plenty of women existing there that don’t wear it. It’s not policed like it is in Iran.

Its not just safe rto be gay or in opposition, its much safer to be a minority. Look at what's happening to the druze in Syria versus the druze in israel.

Yes, tbf, no elections in fatah controlled west bank either. Because hamas would win....

Just to be clear, Hamas' stance against israel is no peace deal and no Israel. Thats why they blew up buses in israel in the 90s - to prevent any peace deals.

Its true that hamas won one election and then there were no more so most Gazans alive wouldn't have been the ones voting for them but they do have (or at least have had) a lot of popular support.

Interesting that you don't mention anywhere that hamas is an extremist religious organization whose social policies are Islamist policies such as forcing women to wear hijab.

There hasn’t been a unified Palestinian political system since the Hamas/Fatah split. Theres been several planned elections, all of which have failed either because of that split or the ongoing conflicts over the past two decades.

What a bizarre take. That kind of talk doesn’t really help anyone. It’s an argument no one but you is having. Certainly no one here has said that whatever hamas does is excusable?

Of course elections were due, but Hamas knew they would lose so the election was not held. Hamas continued in office. I feel very sorry for the Palestinians, but IMO they have not helped themselves. I also don't like Israel's politics, but it is safe to be gay or opposed to the mainstream in Israel and it's not in neighbouring countries.

Maybe their governance Hamas should have had an election in the years following 2006.. why didn't they?

That's medieval.

There is so much of Israel bad and Palestine poor oppressed innocents. No one is Hamas in Gaza.

Hamas have done the people of Gaza no favours and if the terrorist attack of October 7th hadn't occurred this latest conflict wouldn't have been, but hey ho, they have no agency, so no blame, and obviously whatever their 'freedom fighters' do is excusable.

Surely, it's time for another vote! Israel is a better place to live than most of the Third World. A person can be gay or divorced without much fear. Fat chance of that in Iran.

An election in 2006 is now 20 years ago!

I do not like or approve anything Israel is currently doing. But at the same time, I think there must be a balance. I prefer Israel as a democracy, and don't have any sympathy for an Islamist POV. I have quite strong views on this point, but I don't think it makes me racist