AIBU to think primary schools should not audition children for choirs?

*IF thats the reason it should read

She s saying that it shouldnt be entertained though.

but thats the reason you have got challenge it because this would be complete discrimanation. I really hope it s ability and not discrimantion 🙏🏻

I'm a musician, as you can tell from my username. I'm not a singer.

I have read all the OP but not all the thread.

I just wanted to say this, to see if it made a difference. (Mostly a difference to how your daughter feels - but you also sound as if you are hurting, quite reasonably.) It doesn't relate to disability at all - I'm putting that issue firmly to one side. It also doesn't relate to the social effects of your DD not having been chosen, which are actually irrelevant to the selection process.

Sometimes the very best singers are not suitable for choirs. Often the very best choirs are full of people who are not suitable as vocal soloists - my own model is that they have lovely choir voices rather than lovely solo voices. Perhaps your daughter falls into this category?

What is it that you are seeking? Why post at all if you are not interested in other points of view? I'm asking genuinely. You are not seeking other viewpoints. Just go and address it properly with the school. Mumsnet can't solve this issue for you and you are clearly very aggrieved.

@allchange5 OP has already said she doesn't know how many Year 5 were/weren't chosen. All the year 4 and 5 children auditioned. Say that was 30 children and 20 were chosen. It is unfortunate that 3 of those were specifically year 4.

Can't see anywhere where it is said that children who weren't already in the choir from year 6 were chosen. Only all of the year 6 choir members were.

I was always the fat kid at school. I disliked PE, bottom set for it all but had an aptitude for hockey, so I wanted to join the hockey team. Entry wasn't performance based. PE teacher tried and succeeded put me off it, I believe because she didn't see past me being a fat kid. A few years later I did the D of E challenges (involving various sports and hikes) and I found my own way into sports that I love as a young adult.

Your daughter is clearly still getting encouragement in singing in the choir that she attends outside of school.

I am quite passionate in my belief that the recent generations of young adults entering the workplace have a really worrying lack of emotional resilience and that this must be linked to the way they were parented. I would LOVE to see the parents of the current generation of children helping them to learn the skills to cope with life's disappointments.

It's entirely understandable that at 9 she feels like her whole world has caved in, but objectively it hasn't. I wouldn't expect all 9 year olds to be philosophical about being unsuccessful in an audition, but I would like to echo what others have advised you which is to as a parent help her to develop the resilience to withstand small disappointments. Not getting into choir, even when she's only one of three that didn't, IS a small disappointment in the grand scheme of life. Having to sit with some of the 12 children who aren't practicing choir at lunchtimes feels huge to her but IS a small deal in the grand scheme of life. I don't think all 12 will have been mean to her recently, and maybe the mean girl is also missing many of her friends at lunchtime and may learn an important lesson in not being mean to people who she may one day want the company of.

I'd be allowing and welcoming her emotions without also getting caught up in them myself, and then lead a conversation about how she can make the most of it. She could take a book to lunch, make an effort to be friendly with the other 12 children who she wouldn't normally chat to, or get involved in another lunchtime club, that sort of thing. And I'd make a special effort to set up play dates and fun activities with the friends who are in the choir, so that those friendships don't tail off.

Yes, obviously we have all tried out for all sorts of things and not got them. What is the point of all these anecdotes.

The question is - if you were a choir teacher, of a kids choir in a very small school where they all know each other, would you bother running an audition to take only 12 of 15 of your choir through? A choir of 9 year olds! Then replace the 3 deselected with kids who never showed interest in being in a choir at all?

Ot would you just decide you are going to take your whole choir through - you know, the ones who have actually shown interest and commitment to singing. As if 3 here or there make any difference!

I realise this is for a televised thing - I've not heard of this competition, admittedly.

The only reason I could possibly think of for deselecting a committed, enthusiastic choir member would be if they had a voice which, although strong, did not blend in for some reason. Eg. some kids may veer towards singing in a very theatrical way, rather than the choral style or whatever it is this teacher is aiming for?

But it doesn't sound like this is the case here, so I would ask the school for feedback.

Primary schools audition for all sorts of things, Christmas plays, football/netball teams, there was even a quiz team at DS’s primary school. Not all will
ever be picked. Such is life

Yeah that's true it should've been transparent that it was an audition.
I'm so sorry for what happened to your child! That sounds awful. X

OP, you're copping a bit of a pasting here, but I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. Your poor daughter - this must sting.

I think the situation would be different if say, there were 30 kids in Year 4 who auditioned, and 12 got selected and 18 missed out. But having only 15 kids audition and 3 miss out just feels wrong.

Add that to the fact that this is an important and fun opportunity that's directly related to your daughter's favourite hobby (singing) AND her entire friendship group has been selected to participate, leaving her effectively alone for the majority of her lunchtimes over the next few months. (There is no guarantee the other kids in her class will be willing to include her, especially if they'd rather play football, etc).

I get that there are limited spots, but I think the school could have handled this better. IMO, they erred in automatically picking all of Year 6, because that resulted in less spots for the Years 5s and 4s. The argument that "OP's daughter will get her chance when she's in Year 6" doesn't hold water, because the OP has stated this is strictly a one-off opportunity. I think a fairer approach would have been to pick the choir based on ability and interest of ALL the kids. Because who knows - maybe some of the Year 6 kids wouldn't care about doing this performance, thus freeing up more spots for kids like OP's daughter who would have loved to have been part of it.

That said, what's done is done, and it can't be changed now. But I think it would be reasonable for the OP to politely speak to the school about how DD is feeling. Not in a "I demand that that decision be overturned!" way, but more of a "How can we support DD and the other kids who missed out" way, and also in DD's case "Can we come up with a strategy to ensure she's not left by herself at lunchtimes while all of her friends are rehearsing?"

I don't think YABU at all. Your poor daughter.

If they were just picking one or two then yes fair enough, it'd be a shame but you could understand but surely they can squeeze another couple in ffs.

I'm all for building resilience, but I'd probably contact them to find out what they plan on doing about the fact that your daughter is now isolated at lunch times. They've fucked up here and I'd want it fixed too.

Couldn't they just let her practice with them just so she is with her friends and gets to sing, and then on the day they film you could take her out of school and do something lovely with her to cheer her up?

She was part of the school choir that won.

Unless there is another admission/drip feed, the same school choir that allows any child that wants to, join. The same school that has now run auditions for a TV choir and OPs daughter wasn't chosen.

The OP says her daughter has competed and won. I can’t imagine if her daughter was absolutely terrible she would have won.

It won't be a live show. It will be recorded months in advance like almost all Christmas TV shows.

Christmas shows are rarely filmed at Christmas.

But that is fine if she didn’t have to audition but the point of auditioning is that the best are chosen.

So how will the year 6 kids who are leaving the school in the summer still be able to practice when it’s a Christmas show and they’ll be in year 7 and at other schools?

From a teacher’s point of view, I’ve seen so many special events during my teaching career have been quietly phased out because of parents like the OP.

A lot of the people running these kind of things, concerts, musicals, sports teams, plays etc. are volunteers or underpaid teachers going above and beyond their contracted hours.

When you release the list of successful students after auditions, and then the next month is spent fielding angry phone calls and meetings from parents about why their child wasn’t chosen, you better believe that they will decide that it’s simply not worth their time and effort anymore.

It is for a TV show though. The school/teachers aren't going to be allowed to dictate what the TV show is looking for such as how many children, ages etc.

I thought she said she sang outside like in a club, clubs that you pay for are not a confirmation of talent. Or maybe she’s ok but the other were better.

Adults absolutely deal with rejection in their hobbies. I do am dram and frequently try out for a role and don't get it. My Mum is an artist and often one of her art groups will hold an exhibition- not everyone will get a chance to display a painting or artwork.

Perhaps your DD just had a bad day and didn't audition well- just like anyone who has been jobseeking has had a bad interview when the stars just didn't align. As others have said, this is going to be a very common occurrence if DD wants to work in theatre. Frequent rejection is part of the job. Perhaps you could frame this as meaning that DD now has free time and energy to seek other opportunities.

If DC drawn out of a hat it is fair. If they picked favourite DC not fair.

I think you misunderstood @starray 's point OP. Read it again.

However, to all those banging on about 'resilience' or 'this is inevitable in a competitive process', you are missing the point.

This is not the Westminster Cathedral Choir ffs! It a small rural primary school.

Yes they are entitled to select for a choir after audition. But choosing 15 out of 18 - ie, leaving 3 out - IS NOT WORTH THE SELECTION PROCESS. Any teacher with an ounce of intelligence would grasp this surely? If you're only going to exclude 3, just take them all ffs. Why bother doing this pretence of 'auditions?'

At this age, none of them are going to be that exceptional. Plus it's a choir - the whole point of which is that the voices blend in.

You would think teachers would know, more than anyone, that at this age, enthusiasm and commitment to singing are going to carry far more weight than any perceived 'extra talent' of one child's voice over another.

What they should have done is only auditioned the choir - ie. those with a proven interest in singing.

It sounds like there will now be kids selected who are thinking "why do I now have to attend lunch rehearsals - for 9 months?!! I'm not even in the choir. I'd rather be out playing football or generally elsewhere."

Even then, if they only auditioned the choir, they shouldn't have left only 3 out. They should have selected no more than half. That is a competitive process worth doing and that children can understand, even if disappointed. But leaving only 3 out is just plain nasty. It's not a lesson in 'resilience' for the DD - more like a lesson in how not to behave as an adult!

Does she though? An external community choir that anyone can join and gives solos to all of the children isn't confirmation any of them are good at singing.