Conflicted after DS hit DD and she fought back and beat him up?

@Balloonhearts would you say the same if the girl had hit the boy first and he then beat her black and blue

I think this would come under the umbrella of FAFO. He's learnt a valuable lesson in not starting fights he can't finish.

yup.

Natural consequences. Assuming you would be equally ok with the idea if your daughter was winding her brother up and he beat her up

@outofofficeagain but this incident shows it hasn’t worked in this family. OP has allowed play fighting and neither child has learnt boundaries, instead they have learned violence and using strength.

Many DC have been bullied by siblings (under the term play fighting). How many men who demonstrate male violence were allowed to play fight?

What would happen if he was irritated by her disappointment that she couldn't succeed at something and she slapped him to disadvantage him?

If the result was that he retaliated by impeding her ability to walk, would you secretly be proud of him? If so and you expressed it in real life, Children's Services would remove her.

Would you stealth boast about your 'secret pride' on a parenting forum about your 'cool mum' credentials if he was 2 years older and had temporarily disabled her?

Going forward, I also think that although your son (and daughter) does need to understand that males and females have different strength potential, she could be very dangerous if she equates strength and speed with violence. She will also be in danger, it is not a good idea to be taught to react in that way. She could be murdered I self defence.

Have you considered that he is reacting to your perception of girls who are very able in this way? It is grossly irresponsible of you to allow these sorts of ideas to take root. If he was better at cooking than she is, would you allow her to internalise the idea that she is inadequate, to the extent that she tried to sabotage his efforts? And then applaud secretly because she'd burned down the kitchen in a fit of childish rage.

They need correcting firmly and compassionately, with your daughter needing to change more than your son, but that is because you have allowed and secretly celebrated whilst your children fell into the roles of victim a
nd abuser.

And https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/aggression/according-experts/play-fighting-during-early-childhood-and-its-role-preventing-later

There’s a difference between play fighting and violence. Not wishing to derail the thread as an unacceptable tolerance of violence seems to be going on here.

However, there have been many studies on this https://colleenadrian.com/https-colleenadrian-com-blog-play-fighting-teaches-empathy-and-resilience/

It is very interesting how the words of the one commiting the violence is being taken as gospel.

I feel sorry for the young lad in this.

@GetOffTheCounter your poor mum X

My mother grew up in a hideously violent and abusive family. It was completely normalised.

her siblings morphed from beating each other up without consequences to one weekend tying my mother up outside to the fence with a skipping rope and left her there overnight while their parents were away. She was 8. Apparently when she told her mother about it the response was 'well, you probably deserved it'.

Getting the same vibe from the OP. Sibling on sibling violence not only normalised but celebrated.

My brother and I were like this growing up. It got to the point when we were both high school age that my dad had to read us both thr riot act and ban us us from physical altercations of any kind.

Only read your posts - you punish both. He is punished for starting a fight and your daughter is told had she just defended herself and got you she wouldnt be punished. She's being punished for excess and extreme use of force. The boy had cuts, from nails or worse?

Maybe her punishment is a little lighter but not much as she's also older,

I was reading about a report the other day that about 40% of siblings report bullying and about 10% report intense frequent bullying that results in mental health issues.

I’d have stern words with both of them but I doubt you DS will try it again. My DS and DD fought all the time when they were younger it used to drive me mad and a couple of times I’ve had to step in when things got physical.

At the time my DD who is the eldest was a lot taller than her brother. It all stopped pretty abruptly when DS hit puberty and became a lot bigger than her.
They’re both in their 20s and are best mates. No rivalry and they never argue.

@outofofficeagain but play fighting hasn’t worked here has it, no-one has learnt boundaries.

And I do wonder with the level of male violence we see in society whether some of this research is flawed as many men don’t understand boundaries

Theres no such thing as harmless 'play flighting' its leads to.exactly the situation op describes. One child oummeling another because it does lead to anger and aggression because kids cant regulate their tempers and emotions when young.

It leads to resentment and often fear of a sibling.

Play fighting at a young age is totally harmless and in fact been proven to be developmentally important. Children learn boundaries and how to control themselves physically. Like puppies.

The point is the play. It is absolutely not the same as fighting out of anger, violence with the intention of causing harm.

It is never disproportionate for a girl.or woman to teach a person who will one day be stronger and bigger than her, or who is now stronger and bigger than her, to treat her with the respect he owes her.

It is never OK to teach a girl that the feelz of a male must be put ahead of any desire she may have to win a race or to demonstrate superiority in any other field.

I think @mathanxiety ’s post makes the point that is the minds of several PPs. The sexes are not reversible here because :

• eventually the boy will be naturally stronger then his sister
• we live in a culture where men’s violence is normalised and women/girls are required to take the blame for it
• the brother seems to be channelling a particularly fragile sense of identity and masculinity - hitting his sister because she, a girl and younger , beat him? Arrogant, much?

I think that @ForAmpleRobin and her DC’s father (mostly absent in this discussion) need to look at why their son is competitive but a bad loser, and quick to rage against those who beat him. How is this attitude and behaviour emerging from the general family culture? Does the brother behave this way at school, for example?

And in another few years DS will inevitably be bigger and stronger, then what? OP needs to stop this violent competitiveness from both sides before it escalates any further.

It’s a tough one. I would first want to know more. Were the girls taunting him etc as they were winning the games… ie trying to provoke a reaction? When he apparently hit her first- what was that? A frustrated shove in response to a taunting? Or an unprovoked ambush of a punch to the face?

Either way, I think both need encouraged to discuss their feelings and how they could have done better. for DS, he needs it made super clear how hitting anyone, as a way to get out frustration at not winning a game, is totally unacceptable. He has received the natural punishment of a beating and humiliation in this case, plus phone removal. if he ever hits in that circumstance again he will receive a much more severe formal punishment. And he needs to know that starting unnecessary, unjustifiable fights can end him up in jail or hospital- as this almost did. After this clear line/punishment, he may well also need a chance to talk about his humiliation, his worries about not being strong yet, how to deal better with frustration, reassurance that physically he will develop etc…. He may well also well have a lot of pent-up anger/humiliation, made worse by this beating, and this could get solidified into an angry, defensive stance in life. As parent, you need to try to help him process those feelings so they don’t become embedded.

For DD, I’d tell her you are glad she has the confidence and strength to fight back when she is attacked, and that you want her always to be able to do that. But that it was wrong to go so far. Ask her why she did keep going? Was she blinded by rage? Feeling truly threatened? Or Wanted to humiliate? Enjoying it? Talk about being proportionate, and that even if you are initially the defender, you become the aggressor if you are bigger, stronger, or beating someone beyond what’s needed to be safe and to stop the fight.

I would give them the same formal punishment- him for starting a fight. Her for continuing it disproportionately. He of course has the additional punishment of experiencing the beating and humiliation. Make sure they both know there is zero tolerance for aggression between them going forward. Try to reset them to a positive dynamic with each other.

Absolutely. Also I imagine the school will have concerns about visible injuries on a child. None of this is remotely normal or acceptable and I would be proud of my violent daughter either. Grim.

Playfightining isnt harmless and should not be encouraged or condoned in any home.

Its how kids get hurt and end up as bullies or being intimidated by siblings. Your dd is a bully. She chose to humilate and abuse your son by beating him up.

They should both get same punishment. Mine would be grounded for a week with no electronics.

So if someone pushes your dd in sxhool and she punches them in the face several times - you would think thats ok?

Sibling fights can be fucking brutal. Me and my sister had some genuinely horrific fights (shared a room, if you know you know 😂). Her and my brother are twins and they were the worst out of all of us for scrapping.

You need to take this as your sign to nip it in the bud. Tell DS that he should never lay a hand on his sister again, and that this is a lesson. Tell DD it’s never acceptable to beat your brother up like that, even if he hits you first. She went way too far and she needs to get that temper in check.

They probably will scrap again, but you need to take it very seriously and dole out serious punishments.

Vivi0 ·
"I can’t even imagine the kind of person that gets this excited over child on child violence"

Me neither. It's horrific.