To let my daughter have a seat?

Sorry, what parts of

'My daughter is too short to reach any of the handles and would absolutely go flying if the tram hit the breaks.

she wouldn’t have fitted on my lap between the seat and the Perspex in front of us. My knees already touch the barrier! Plus we had a bag as well already on my lap.'

Didn't work for you?

Maybe just to be considerate of others. I would definitely have sat my child on my lap to free up a seat for someone else. I think it is called common courtesy.

Why? OP was there first.

What reasonable adult would expect a young child to stand.

You could have stood and let your daughter sit on your seat.

Depends, did you have to pay for her seat?

Fine, but generally I still think kids should sit on adults’ knees if possible.

The major problem is the entitlement of a healthy young man, gobbing-off that a child should stand while he sits.

I would have put her on my knee to free up a seat. Not necessarily just for the guy, but also just because the guy was young 20ish doesn’t mean he isn’t in need of a seat for unforeseeable reasons.

The young male passenger lacked care and consideration for a 5 year old who was safer sitting down.

No way am I getting up for a child (except a babe in arms) but I also wouldn't expect a child to get up for me.

It's up to the parents to put child on knee or prop them up against their bodies / train carriage wall.

Yes and I can see that offering your seat to someone who needs it - elderly people, pregnant women, oh and young children who can’t reach hand rails and get tired easily! would be good manners. But there is literally no reason for a child to give their seat to a full grown young man! How is it in any way selfish or self-centred? Especially as he was rude and entitled about it. That is teaching a child that if you want something, that you’re not in any way entitled to, all you have to do is demand it, shout, and make a fuss and you’ll be given it. Isn’t that the opposite of what we try and teach our kids?

Last time I was on a Melbourne tram (a few months ago) it was horribly overcrowded and a woman in a wheelchair had great difficulty travelling.

Partly because NOBODY made any room for her to get to the wheelchair space. We had to ask various other passengers to move for her. A tram full of able-bodied young people, clearly taught that no-one deserves more respect than them, like many of the attitudes expounded on this thread.

While I think the OP's situation was reasonable (just) because the young man was quite capable of standing, the problem is that the attitude on this thread - that adults have no more right to a seat than children - leads to the sort of lack of consideration that I witnessed on this Melbourne tram, and have experienced myself when I was temporarily - and very obviously - disabled and found it difficult to stand.

And in my experience, the people who gave no quarter to my difficulties in standing were mothers with babies in prams, taking up all the spaces for people with disabilities. And the people who gave up seats for me over the 6 months of temporary disability were elderly men - who themselves weren't particularly steady on their feet sometimes.

I was brought up to regard good manners as thinking of others' comfort as much as (or more than) one's own. Offering seats, opening doors, passing food, and so on - it's all about showing consideration for others.

It's not about hierarchies of respect, but a consideration for others - and that is the way one shows respect to all, and demonstrates one's own self-respect. Selfishness and self-centredness is not a good look.

THIS

WHY CAN’T PEOPLE READ ALL OF OPS POSTS BEFORE POSTING THEMSELVES!!

Kids should go on parents' laps on busy public transport, IMO.

Let her sit on your lap.

Yes I am struggling to understand, can a child not sit sideways on someone’s lap? I get there may not be too much leg room at the front. I think most busses are like that.

Which is a fair assumption. OP says he got 'annoyed' was 'very vocal' about a child having a seat whilst adults were standing. Just like he also made a fair assumption that OP's child is probably capable of standing.

Maybe if he had politely asked, OP would've been more likely to have her child stand or if he did explain he was feeling unwell if that was the case.

If the team is packed and the child is small enough to sit on your knee, then they should do that to free up a seat

Can people please stop with the sit the child on the parent's lap business because the OP has explained why this isn't possible.

So tiresome.

She knew about her and her daughter. So she had a choice at that point. I'm saying I would have erred on side of caution and would have assumed if he asked, there must be something behind that. She assumed he was being demanding and above her daughter.

That's it. Not deep.

But again, the man didn't know either and that is my point.

The most likely scenario unless they were in priority seats is that he simply felt more entitled to sit down than OP's child.

OP hasn't made any more assumptions than the man, to be fair. She assumed he is able bodied with no hidden disabilities as did he with both OP and her child.

I’ve experienced that the most considerate practice on public transport, is for the child to sit on the parent’s lap, if other adults are standing and space is limited—especially if someone elderly or vulnerable is present, remembering always that there are hidden disabilities. Maybe that person was unwell and their day had been a horror show. It’s a real life example to show children how kindness matters too.

No the reasons you gave were either inaccurate or describe someone being kind: “they can sit on a knee” is being kind because it’s inconvenient and uncomfortable for the child & the mother (who may have a bunch of bags etc with her) for a 5 yo child to sit on her lap for any extended journey, so offering the seat, which was her’s to begin with, to someone who has no real need to sit down, is a kind thing to do, as it’s inconveniencing the person doing it. That’s not the same as having good manners. Having ‘younger legs’ is inaccurate because a 20 something man has far stronger legs that get tired far less quickly than a 5 year old’s legs. He can also steady himself and reach the hand holds much more easily.

Good manners is saying please and thank you and being polite. It is not putting someone else’s needs above your own simply because they are a self-important adult and you are an ‘insignificant’ child. I would not want to teach my child that their needs & comfort are less important than a rude, entitled grown man