SEND - children’s needs to be reassessed from year 6 2029?

I’m happy to introduce you to Temple Grandin and her well documented, international career.

’the author of more than 60 scientific papers on animal behavior. Grandin is a consultant to the livestock industry, specializing in animal welfare’

There's masses of evidence @Playingvideogames. Here's just one paper.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8477228/

There is more the ASD than either non-verbal and incontinent or having a presentation that would have been diagnosed as Asperger Syndrome.

DS2&3 have ASD. They are both verbal and continent (although DS3 has SM, which isn’t the same as non-verbal, a language disorder and needs support with toileting/uses a wash and dry toilet). Neither would have been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome under the old system because they had a language delay as a young child. I am also autistic. I wouldn’t have been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome either because I also had a language delay as a young child.

Is there “zero evidence” or is that just your take on what you see? Certainly that isn’t what I was told. My understanding was/is that Asperger’s and PDD(nos) and Kanner Autism were merged into a single diagnosis because they were considered to be different presentations of the same condition cloud. Further to that that there was/is a heavy weighting towards family history of maths/science/music based occupations.

So, what do you think LA officers, LA educational psychologists, NHS speech and language therapists (paid for by the LA), social workers, education lawyers (including the chairs at the SEND tribunal) and doctors do? They are objective bystanders and they make decisions on what children need. No child with complex needs gets a £100,000 pa placement, because it’s their parents’ choice. They get them, because the above professionals accept there is no alternative.

What makes you think you have some special insight, that none of these professionals have? You don’t even know that these kinds of placements are not just about a teacher standing in front of a class; they tend also to be about social care and medical needs 24/7, which are beyond the abilities of most parents to cope with.

For children with complex needs, teaching them how to communicate how to get what they want, rather than using challenging behaviour to communicate in a maladaptive way, that they have unmet needs, can make the difference between needing 1:1 care or 2:1 care (circa £100,000 pa for their whole adult life). It’s not something lay parents can do at home - especially when the parents end up suffering carer breakdown, which in itself costs the NHS!

As for the white paper, I can’t see how any school can know the true SEN profile of a child with multiple co morbid specific learning difficulties without a good multidisciplinary assessment? Teachers cannot know, without an assessment, that a child with ADHD or autism for instance has such a low information processing speed, that they cannot process the information coming in, at the speed at which it is being delivered in a mainstream classroom; or that their memory is so poor, they cannot remember what’s been said and cannot carry out multi step instructions? Or, that children are so overwhelmed by the sensory input among 30 children, they cannot learn. Even if the teachers do know, what can they do about it in a class of 30?

If the government plans to employ far more educational psychologists, SALTs, etc to assess and provide input for these children, how does that save any money on the current system? If posters say it cuts down on expensive placements - parents still won’t be able to cope with these children 24/7, so social services will be much busier, as will the NHS!

For those capable of 5 gcses grade 5 or above, the school system is designed entirely around their needs in terms of curriculum and environment.

Not all. DS3 is extremely academically able. More than capable of 5 GCSEs/IGCSEs at grade 5+. He has two GCSE grade 9s already. He sat two first as a trial run to see how home invigilation would work and check other EAA would run smoothly. He will sit more this summer. Despite being capable of 5 GCSEs/IGCSEs at grade 5+, he has EOTIS because it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school. The school system is not designed around his needs in terms of curriculum or environment.

The reading is the same actually

It isn’t the same. You might not be able to see that, which is part of the problem when staff working in education don’t understand SEN law, but it isn’t. Passing the phonics check and KS1 SATs doesn’t mean DC don’t need SEP.

There are well known issues in mainstream schools. Huge amounts of cover staff being used to teach gcse science classes for months on end, or supply teachers, try learning when you have a different teacher every week who doesn't know the class. Not enough money for basics so kids having to share resources and parents having to buy more

All of which affect DC with SEN as well. Those issues aren’t limited to DC without SEN. In fact, DC with SEN who are not in MS often face more teaching from non-subject specialists.

they have no idea of what may or may not work until she’s tries it.

They would if they assessed as they should.

the child not to like

It isn’t about not liking. It isn’t a choice. Placement breakdown like this is a result of their SEN.

I take issue with this word ‘failure’ because it implies nothing was done

No, it doesn’t. If someone failed to climb over a wall, it doesn’t mean they did nothing. Their attempt may have been with every effort. Or it may have been a weak, pathetic attempt, as is the case for the LA failing to support Lougle’s DD1.

making reasonable efforts

If they were making reasonable efforts, they wouldn’t have acted unlawfully. They would have provided the SEP in F. They wouldn’t have assessed needs properly before now. They wouldn’t have named placements that were not appropriate, which they knew would not work.

They’ll follow regardless.

Wrong. Not regardless. The right provision now saves money later. It can be the difference between expensive residential placements or not. Where residential placements are needed, it can be the difference between placement A or placement B costing twice as much.

have to remind you every child is individual

Ah, so it is just DC with SEN who you think all need the same.

You aren’t an objective bystander. You aren’t objective at all. You are ignorant. You post random links you don’t understand and don’t read. You have repeatedly blamed parents and children with SEN.

Lougle doesn’t want perfect. Like all parents of DC with SEN, Lougle understands that the law doesn’t entitle her to perfect provision or the best. What Lougle is advocating for is provision that is appropriate. Provision that isn’t harmful. Provision that isn’t going to leave her DD1 deteriorating further. Provision that doesn’t leave her DD1 at risk. For the LA and setting to act lawfully.

Whether you recognise it or not, her DD1 has been failed. She has been failed by education, failed by the NHS (with a fair dose of diagnostic overshadowing) and failed by social care (children and adult services alike).

your child was offered multiple settings and has rejected them all

Lougle’s DD1 hasn’t rejected placements. Your lack of understanding if the gift that keeps on giving. Placement breakdown due to unmet needs and the placement being inappropriate is not DD1 rejecting placements.

increase in pupils with SEN

Except, as you have been told multiple times, the data shows there hasn’t been such a large increase in SEN as you keep suggesting. You aren’t interested in the actual statistics.

Why would they?

There’s zero evidence children with profound non verbal autism are more likely to be born to people with what used to be Asperger’s.

There’s no convincing evidence the two forms are even related.

This is terrible. We’re heading there too.

Presumably their parents and grandparents might very well have though?

"Didn’t say that"

You said the UK has higher SEN rates. These are children with SEN.

Thank you. There is hope that you're starting to get it.

"In the UK, the estimated prevalence in adults is about 1.1%, with relative consistency across studies [Huang, 2020; NCCWCH, 2022; BMJ Best Practice, 2023; NCCMH, 2023]. Comparing this estimated prevalence of ASD in adults with that of children (1-2%) suggests that ASD is underdiagnosed among adults [Huang, 2020]."

My Google.

All children are worthwhile.

Fred Epstein. Renowned neurosurgeon who was so dyslexic that he had to record assignments on tape.

Temple Grand in, esteemed in animal science. Was deemed brain damaged at the age of 2 and they recommended institutional care.

Henry Cavendish, pioneer in physics and chemistry, described as peculiarly shy with severe social communication challenges.

Besides that, it isn't about what job these children may get. They are worthwhile in themselves.

How typical is this would you say? Not impossible of course but there’s a reason it made the news.

Didn’t say that

I would like to see the evidence that other countries have more non verbal 8 year olds in nappies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-64717079

Jason Arday. Learned to talk at 11 and to read at 18.

One of my friends was sectioned after burnout plus an existing MH condition left her vulnerable. That's a lot more expensive than giving her DS the right provision in the first place.

This trend in rising rates of ASD, particularly in recent years, can be seen across a range of countries (Zeidan et al., 2022). Data among 8-year-olds in the US, for instance, show a similar increase in ASD prevalence from 0.67% in 2000 to 2.76% in 2020 (Maenner et al., 2023), and a range of countries show similarly narrowing gaps between men and women (Li et al., 2022). Exactly when this rise began is unclear, however. ASD prevalence is generally higher in high-income countries, but there is some evidence to suggest that the rates among children in the UK are relatively high by international and European standards (Sacco et al., 2022). This relative comparability with some other similar countries helps to suggest that the increase in pupils with SEN and EHCPs is in part driven by broader trends of increased prevalence or recognition of ASD rather than just the nature of the English SEN system.

I highly doubt non verbal 8 year olds in nappies will go on to be top scientists, or children unable to speak to others due to anxiety.

"No comparable country has the SEN rates we do.
Happy to be proved wrong."

You are not interested in fact. You only want to peddle your own rhetoric.

Why not post the SEND rates of 10 countries to give some evidence to your assertion.

You are literally making things up.

Well if we’re talking about ASD SEN then no other country produces the calibre and quantity of engineers and scientists that we do and have done for centuries, a skill set that is known to be aligned to the prevalence of autism and other neurodivergent differences.