Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

Are we talking statistics or anecdata?

Statistically intelligent and driven people with right attitude will be more successful than stupid and lazy ones.

Of course there are some tragic circumstances health and disabilities related, but in developed world people have plenty of opportunities to do well.
I don't think we should ever expect for everyone to be well off - it's all relative to the level of prosperity within given society. We should aim for everyone to have enough to live on.

I don't know. Redundancies. Being a single parent. Divorce. Having not much support. Money problems. All sorts, I suppose.

I guess my bad luck was health problems but I just carried on for my children.

What kind of "bad luck"? Health issues and disabilities I accept. But what else?

It's lucky for you that you had the opportunity for a degree, even in the face of hardship. It's also lucky for you that you had the strength and mental capacity to keep going. You should be proud of what you have achieved. I still don't think that changes my point.

I was born as a woman in India in a low income family. Didn't stop me getting my master's in civil engineering. People born in the UK have it so much better.

Exactly. Agree. Some posters on here seem to think hard work and skill will get you to where you need to go, regardless of what luck you have. Life isn't quite that black and white.

Yes, i acknowledge that. But it's possible to have hard work, drive, determination, and intelligence yet bad luck that means all of it makes no difference.

A massive part of it is entirely dependent on where you are born which is - I'd say - largely a question of luck. If you, for example, are born a girl in Afghanistan currently you could have all the work skill and drive in the world and still most likely end up an uneducated housewife with no rights to even speak outside your home.

No, that’s not what I wrote. You’ve added that part yourself

Some people have yes, but we’ve decades of sociological research to prove that these are factors that prevent people from becoming “well off”.

It's not totally luck. There's something called hard work, skill and drive. I agree with PP, you were dismissive.

No, life isn't fair. I never said it was.

And I wasn't dismissive. Only in your opinion.

OP, what point are you trying to make?
That some people can't become successful? yes, of course. So what? there always will be people living below average for any given society at any given time.
Assuming it's sufficient to house, feed and cloths them.

Do you want everyone to be equal?

I'm bookmarking this. It's a beautiful reply.

Yes, absolutely agree that traumatic events shape the course of someone's life. Having been born three months prematurely and was weaned off heroin, I was very fortunate to be adopted by the most wonderful loving parents who gave me a brilliant upbringing.

I've written a post upthread outlining the events that have shaped my life over the past decade (head injury and post concussion syndrome before being injured permanently by an off label antipsychotic), and how this bad luck really impacted my life indefinitely, including now how my career is. The PP who pointed out that I wasn't being fair to those who achieved success through hard work did have a point, and i agree, but she hasn't experienced my trauma, health problems and the awful experience I've had to overcome with adverse reactions to medication and a movement disorder.

There is room for both circumstances and the decisions others make (and we make) that impact how things turn out. I agree with you about this totally. Those factors absolutely influenced my life in the past decade and i actually felt a bit upset with the PP who's not been through hell like that but kept going.

I'm happy your last sentence was so beautifully written, and made so much sense. Thank you 😊

Sorry not sure where the gif came from and can't remove it!

Also I think the "just try harder" mentality is damaging. And victim blaming. Just try harder no matter the impact it has on you, if you don't it's your own fault for failing.

My brother suffers from quite serious mental illness. He will never be "successful". He's just moved into his own flat at the age of 36 and this feels like a massive win for him. I am not putting him down by saying those things about him, I'm incredibly proud of where he is given the challenges he's faced. I'd be very annoyed at someone suggesting he should just have tried harder not to be schizophrenic and then he could have been Elon Musk.

Because society and the education system crushes the soul and ambition out of some people?

My mum is severely dyslexic, not diagnosed until 14 but from entering school was told she was dim and stupid. She didn't get to sit the 11 plus she was given blank paper and told to entertain yourself and be quiet whilst the rest of the class did the test. She left school barely able to read and write.

She went on to have a major stroke at 23 with a newborn at home and an abusive husband to boot. She had to learn to read, write, talk, walk all over again whilst trying to look after a child. She became a single parent back in the days where there was a lot of stigma. She was living in poverty reliant on handouts from family, friends and strangers to live. My sister was heading the same way. Identified at her school as a daydreamer from a single parent household that probably wouldn't amount to much. My mum met and married my dad, they moved house and found a new school for my sister that help her find her focus and aspirations.

My mum has the reading and comprehension level of a 7 year old. My dad is also quite severely dyslexic but has a natural ability for logic and that has allowed him to build a success career in electrical engineering. My mum worked for 30 odd years as an untrained nurse. It might not have been highly paid or highly skilled but it was something she could do well. Compassion is a skill that rarely is rewarded financially. The education system failed her and then her body failed her too.

Beautifully written. Thank you! What happened to your friend and his A levels? My heart breaks as my son just starting college in September....

Maybe what I mean is this: our lives are shaped by the choices we make — and also by the choices others make for us. They’re shaped by the circumstances we’re born into, by mental health, by physical illness, by trauma. Not everyone starts from the same place, and not everyone has the same capacity or opportunity to reach the same outcome.
I had a friend who was locked in his house by his alcoholic mother during our A-levels. My heart still breaks for him 22 years later, even though we’re no longer in touch. Trauma like that doesn’t just disappear. Childhood abuse, neglect, instability — those things are heavy. They follow you.
No one truly knows the path someone else has walked.
So if you do manage to “get to the top,” there’s no room for gloating. You should recognise the pitfalls you passed — and how easily you could have fallen into them yourself.
You can be proud of what you’ve achieved. You can acknowledge that it wasn’t easy. And at the same time, you can recognise that it’s not a moral failing if someone else is still struggling.
Success and compassion can exist together.

I’m the child of immigrant parents and also came here as a baby. As a toddler, we lived in homeless hotels after my dad lost his accommodation. He became chronically unwell and died when I was a teenager. I’m the middle of six children. You can question why there were so many of us — there were reasons. I may not agree with them all, but I understand them.
After my dad died, my mum raised six kids alone. She’d been his carer and didn’t know her rights. We lived hand to mouth. No holidays. No extras.
I got a job at 16 to pay for college, then worked through university to cover rent and expenses. I nearly didn’t sit my finals because my fees hadn’t been paid — a friend helped me understand my rights. I kept going, got a graduate job, saved hard, and supported my family home.
My husband also grew up with a single mother. He worked from 18 to help pay her mortgage and saved for a deposit on a flat. We paid for our own wedding and furnished our home with gift money.
We spent years scraping by while he tried to build businesses. There were failures. There were months — even years — when nothing was left after bills. He worked evenings and weekends while we raised three children. Family time was often sacrificed.
Nearly 18 years on, I’m in a strong position in my sector, achieved through hard work and further study — even while raising three children, including one with serious health needs. I reduced my hours at one point, and thankfully my employer supported me. My husband eventually built successful businesses through grit and persistence, even when both of us felt like giving up.
None of it came easy.
I was later diagnosed with ADHD. I struggle with confidence and periods of depression. I’m still always slightly afraid we’ll lose everything.
Most people wouldn’t know my background. I don’t share it for sympathy. I share it because while the system can feel stacked against you, it isn’t impossible.
I don’t judge others. I just urge people — don’t give up. Keep trying

I agree OP. Just because the exceptional person has overcome great odds and succeeded doesn't mean everyone can. I don't agree that's limiting to those people, but I do think it's grossly unfair to them to suggest they should "just" overcome their difficulties because others have.

You are clearly one of those blessed with ability to progress. A great many arent. Whether its due to lack of ability or lack of opportunity.
Most people people work "flipping hard". Probably flipping harder in unrewarding poorly paid ,unfullfilling jobs.
Plenty of capable people will not progress because they dont have the qualifications or the education level or the right background.

Just as many are not intellectually capable of great things. Thats not putting them down. Every human parameter exists in a bell curve. From gifted to ordinary to low level. The vast majority are ordinary. If you are Ordinary from a non priviledged background where you are hepled along, you not likely to achieve greatness.
It is certainly not a level playing field.

That one in a million self made millionaire who was an orphan in a slum but still made it is not the norm.
"Anybody can be anything if they work hard" is peddling a lie.

so I agree that obviously everybody doesn’t have equal capacity, but there is also a huge variation in the decisions people make along the way.

I find it interesting and significant that you write that lengthy post appearing to suggest that if everyone made equally sound decisions , they would all arrive at a similarly elevated position.

All it takes along that route is one bit of ill health in yourself or someone very close to you, one move to a company where the boss turns out to be incompetent or impossible to work for in ways that didn't show during recruitment, one company merger, one compromise to do what's best for your partnership/family and any one of a million other circumstances or bits of bad luck, and your careful decisions go all to pot.

You can't get to the top without working hard and taking the right decisions.

Working hard and making the right decisions will not get you to the top without luck.

I think the thing is if you look at society on a macro level of course not everyone can be high earning and it wouldn’t be feasible, as you say we need larger numbers of workers at the lower spend of scale.

But on a micro level, we all have one life to live and one life we are in control of, and we should strive to do the best we individually can, and I think that’s where the advice comes from.

At a practical level I know everyone has different skills and expectations (and life experience), I just don’t comprehend or relate to not being aspirational I suppose. It just literally never occurred to me that I would be low income, I’ve had a goal and a vision all my life and have just aimed for that unfalteringly, even though I came from quite a low income background myself. Even when I unexpectedly became pregnant young, it didn’t stop me. I suppose on an ignorant level you just assume other people think like you (even if that’s a bit irrational).