Can we stop acting like everyone has an equal capability to become well off?

I agree that success if subjective. I think in the context of this thread it has been successful career/ money focused, but I entirely agree that is not true for everyone.

I don't think it's so crazy to pick a degree based on future earning potential. I studied law, I did have a genuine interest in law but I - of course - also considered where my degree would leave me in terms of potential career and salary. I would probably much rather have studied history, but didn't fancy myself as a history teacher which, at the time, was all I could really see coming out of that. I wanted a clear career path to a career that would have potential to give me certain quality of life (in reality you can now just as easily go into law studying history than law with conversion courses etc).

Incidentally I have not followed the most lucrative path for a lawyer, but am happy with where I am, and the quality of life I can joy by not having done that.

Working hard in a cut throat industry isnt for everyone though. It might mean that they burn out faster, or the pressure is too much.

I agree with the PP who said that sometimes someone might choose a lesser paid job with fewer responsibilities, but they feel happy. Nothing wrong with that either if it means better mental health and life work balance.

There's nothing wrong with that at all. I didn't say there was.

I am not sure how someone who does not actually want to study medicine, but is thinking of their future earnings, somehow convinces a university to accept them considering how competitive medicine is to get into. You need a lot more than perfect GCSE and A-levels results.

Some people don't want a massive house, flashy cars and holidays. They just want to do an honest days work that they can totally forget about until they are next in... one that covers their outgoings and maybe not much more. There is more to life than pushing yourself to earn the most you can.

I never said it's a level playing field. I was challenging the OP who is arguing that an English degree should have brought her a high salary and it's absolutely bollocks.

If you are poor, school is the way out. It's your escape route. It certainly was mine. But you do have to follow with other savvy decisions as well.

My point was that WITHOUT school, it's extremely difficult to lift yourself out of poverty down the line. School makes it easier, it gives you a leg up you don't otherwise have.

And what's so wrong about people willing to work extremely hard in a cut throat environment? Why should they not get rewarded for doing something others are not willing to do?

Where did I say a career they "hate"? It's an extremely privileged position to think you can pursue your passion and think you will be a high earner.

Yes, many young people, myself included made decisions also based on future earnings potential.

Nonsense. I was making the point that people who have the same intellectual abilities and opportunities also have personal agency and make decisions which lead to different outcomes.

writing a post does not oblige anyone to consider and cover every possible variable.

my specific post was in the context of pensions (which is something the OP was basing her post on) and people I know who have made choices to work part time long term. Not just for a few years but in some cases never returning to full time work after having kids. I also mentioned the choice between actively looking for promotion, with a harder role and more responsibility, or choosing to work at a lower, but less well paid level.

I explicitly said there is no judgement here, people are entitled to make their own choices, but that this can be one reason why people will end up with a much smaller pension and thereby a lower standard of living later on.

the fact that I didn’t also write about other reasons is not an ‘enormous hole.’ You’re not a teacher assessing an essay which requires that!

Maybe someone isn't as good at the sciences or maths to make a career out of it? 😳

I chose art history as a degree because I am crap at maths and not really great at science. My eldest DD is brilliant at all subjects so will have a broader career to choose from.

Not everyone has a level playing field or excels in their chosen path. The arts aren't really ever going to pay well for most people unless they are absolutely driven to work at a cut throat company or something.

Totally agree. There seems to be a lack of understanding of the difference between education and training in that post too - and in society in general in fairness. It’s sad.

Do people actually study something they don't like, and go on to do a career they hate?
What a waste of life.

It's not that being good at school is all it takes. It's that it's is a pre-requisite. You then also need to make some focused decisions and still work hard. Deciding to study English over something like law, medicine, or engineering, was never going to give you a well paying career. You chose to study something as a hobby. Others choose to study something they don't like but that has a higher likelihood of a well paid career.

Well no not at all, I wasn’t reflecting on the thread but the OP’s initial point about when advice is given elsewhere.

You can't get to the top without working hard and taking the right decisions.
Working hard and making the right decisions will not get you to the top without luck
This exactly. You put it much better than I managed to, @Imdunfer

Some people on this thread arent just encouraging people to do their best and strive for more though, are they? They are actively suggesting that if you don’t or can’t advance it’s a personal failing. That’s not the case, because if the macro level situation to which you refer.

Not all opportunities. Yes, they tend to be smarter and harder working. But just because they are doesn't automatically mean they get greater chances of success.😳

All right, you've made your point. Yes people deserve to be credited for hard work. But that doesn't negate the fact that luck has an impact to a point. You seem to have not read the other posts I wrote.

And yes, luck can absolutely influence the course of someone's life regardless of how hard working they are. But we've covered that, so...eh.

What do you mean a quota system to level things up?

Seem to me all the opportunities are going to people from Chinese, Indian, African or Bangladeshi backgrounds. They are naturally smarter than us and work harder, so need a quota system to level up unfair system.

You said success is 'totally luck' which it means it had nothing to do with any effort the person has put in. That is dismissive.

Honestly, those of you that are in a place you don’t want to be and are not the version of yourself you wanted to be — firstly, give yourself the grace to mourn that loss and appreciate the version that you have.
Start small, be kind and focus on the positive — even if it is one thing and it’s so hard.
Try doing something different — if you can’t read a book, listen to a podcast, do breathing exercises, make small changes towards something. If you have kids they will hopefully see you as the role model that is focusing on the betterment. Try learning something new, something small — it will build your self esteem.

If you can’t work, see if you can do any free online courses. If you don’t have the time then give yourself that grace but think I need to do something to change this for my kids.

Having a positive mind set is hard — but studies in psychology show that believing you can grow and improve increases persistence and resilience. The only way of moving up is if you aim up and focus on that. It might be that you love the version of you that turns up for your child — to advocate for them if they have the same difficulties as you.
I am struggling with boundaries and my friend has been trying to help. We have been trying — you owe it to yourself.
.

That's what I said. You left an enormous hole in your explanation of why some people aren't successful.,

Ok, let's work through this. Perhaps with a more physical example at first. Let's say that to be running a marathon very quickly was success. The factors that would influence that might be:

• Genetics - am I naturally sporty and well coordinated? - luck
• Physical disability - I have usable legs/ am able bodied/ no been in an accident - luck
• Location/ means - I am somewhere where I can train and have the luxury of time to do so. I don't, for example have disabled children or work 3 jobs to make ends meet and I can afford good running trainers - luck, largely, probably some choice involved..
• Discipline- I've trained well and eaten right - work/ effort (although I reckon some people are more naturally disciplined or motivated)

To run the fastest marathon ever is beyond me, no matter how much discipline I exercise, I am a 5ft2 43 year old woman. No matter how much work or effort I put in I cannot erase the luck factors. I can probably run a marathon generally, even if I didn't have the genetics or was physically disabled but that would require HUGE amounts of discipline vs someone young and naturally athletic. Even more so if I had lost my legs in an accident.

So for you and your degree, you obviously overcame a lot of adversity to get where you are. However you still had access to higher education (albeit in more challenging circumstances) than my example of an afghan girl, or say a refugee in a South Sudanese displacement camp. You also like have decent mental health and intelligent to be able to overcome adversity - again some of that will be genetic or circumstance of your upbringing. Someone who genetically is not intelligent or cannot physically access higher education cannot achieve what you did, EVEN recognising the hard work you put in.

So I think there is a scale for success factoring in opportunity (luck), circumstance (luck), ability (luck) and perseverance/ discipline. That doesn't take away from your achievements, but it does recognise there's not something wrong with someone because they cannot achieve what you have. It's not just that they are lazy or didn't try hard enough.

Brilliant reply. Yes, I've had a lot of experiences that made me feel lesser than I am. I lost my ability to see in my mind's eye after my head injury. I lost my ability to read after it too. I had a breakdown, essentially it made me so ill that I was polydrugged and given a horrible off label antipsychotic that gave me a terrible movement disorder. This has made me even less of the person I was a decade ago.

Some people experience terrible things and recover. I have partly been ok but I will never truly be myself again. That person is gone.

An experience which has made you feel lesser than you are.

My mum has believed she is stupid and worthless and to avoid people who are capable as they will see her as she is and put her down because of this. This has come through the nature of the education system in the 60s and 70s and then from an abusive relationship.

My sister had to drop out of her a levels in part because of how the school treated her being stalked by a fellow pupil.

My primary school assumed because I was quiet and reserved I was dim. Thankfully I had supportive parents who gave me self worth but many without that support would believe the teachers when they put in reports that you "had fluked good results"

I experienced discrimination in my undergraduate degree and my PhD. I do have a mental health condition but with support and treatment I can manage. My undergraduate tutor told me "depression was a girl problem and he didn't deal with girl problems" and my post graduate supervisor engineered an almost impossible situation to come back from.

Some many people that come from difficult situations will say things along the lines of "I had the food fortune of finding a course that fitted alongside my 3 jobs" or "I had a mentor that inspired me". Those with bad luck look for a course that will help them do something but that course only runs on a Tuesday at 8am and it was impossible to get there in time or found a course but it cost £3000 to do it and I was already in a negative budget.

At one of my previous jobs we had a series of talks from people further along their career talking to those of us that were just starting. Once spoke about how she was able to restart her career after her husband died because of the kindness of her daughters teacher. Her daughter has just started school and she had been able to negotiate finishing at 3 to pick her daughter up at 3.15 and completely the rest of her hours once her daughter was in bed. In the meantime the school changed it's hours so that it finished at 3 (in an era before after school clubs). She broke down on the teacher and said she didn't know how she was going to keep working. The teacher said don't worry, I will keep hold of her until she got there whether that was 3.05 or 3.15. This was good fortune that allowed her to restart her career. It doesn't take much of a stretch for there to be a different universe whether that happened and there was no one else to get her and she had to seek out a different job or give up work entirely because it didn't fit with family life.

If you can look back on how you got from where you started to where you are now and say yes I worked hard and it paid out but I was fortunate that more often than not a solution could be found and that allowed me to improve my situation it doesn't take much of a leap to think there might another person where instead of a solution at each turn further problems arose?

My dad worked in china for several years when I was a child. He spoke to one of the female interpreters, she was one of the best but in a more junior position. She told him that she had been unable to afford to get the qualification that would allow her to move up to higher positions. It was a lot of money for her but affordable to someone on western earnings. There were three people from my dad's company working there and together they paid for her to get that qualification. She quickly moved to a new role earning far more than she was before. She had the good fortune of meeting people who were able to support her getting the qualification she needed. How many other women that didn't meet people like my dad and his colleagues who never moved on from starting position ?