Page 4 | We don't want the government to lurch to the left

Bargepole45 · 2026-02-10T13:57:01+00:00

I am absolutely astounded that Labour think it's democratic to decide that they can lurch to the left despite being elected with a very clear promise to not tax and spend. I believe this is absolutely not what the general public want and I am really worried that the economy isn't going to survive this and we will end up with an IMF bailout that will lead to very painful spending cuts for our most vulnerable. Please vote: YABU :I want Labour to lurch to the left in order to increase taxation and spending YANBU: I don't want Labour to lurch to the left and would be against further tax and spending rises

Jennyginger · 11/02/2026 14:40

I voted for them, but I think if they move far to the left (why the histrionic word "lurch"?) it will just make the Tories look more inviting, especially now that the most loony members have moved to Reform.

BlackCatDiscoClub · 11/02/2026 14:40

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 14:37

Except the data shows the opposite. Poorer people are more likely to vote for left wing parties whilst richer people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. It's also true that people get more right wing as they age and accumulate wealth. Not a universal rule, but the trend is clear and global.

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Can you share the data? Its just that I actually conducted political research in a Kentish community and found the complete opposite of what you are saying. Of course, there could be regional differences, but that would still run contrary to your statement that this is globally recognised behaviour.

Original poster

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 14:37

BlackCatDiscoClub · 11/02/2026 14:32

Actually no, and it really shows how you think that you said this. Many left wingers think 'If im doing badly, I'll vote to help myself. If im doing ok, I'll vote to help others'. In the last election I voted for the party that I thought would help others the most because I'm doing ok. Its the compete opposite of the right wing 'im alright Jack' attitude.

Conversely, so many poorly off right wingers who rely on welfare, social housing and the NHS are voting for parties like Reform who would scrap it all! Edit to add: the mentality seems to be, I'll give up all this as long as it stops immigrants getting it too!

Edited

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Except the data shows the opposite. Poorer people are more likely to vote for left wing parties whilst richer people are more likely to vote for right wing parties. It's also true that people get more right wing as they age and accumulate wealth. Not a universal rule, but the trend is clear and global.

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Original poster

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 14:35

I just want to add that contrary to many people's opinions on this thread, I am not against removing inequality and improving prospects for those that are struggling.

I simply don't think lurching the left will achieve this. It's like when people talk about the two child cap and inequality. We know that there is an apparent link between deprivation and poor educational outcomes, we would therefore expect educational outcomes to drop for impacted families when the cap was introduced. Except it didn't. It stayed broadly the same. Why was this? Because there is far more at play than just money. Removing the cap won't improve educational outcomes either. You need to look at other factors before simply throwing money at the problem. The left is obsessed with lifting people out of financial poverty but they don't understand that real poverty extends far beyond the financial, especially for children. The easiest thing to do is pretend this isn't the case and just give families more money so you can game the metric rather than tackle what's really going on. I say this as someone from a deprived area who grew up around these families during the New Labour era. There was a chronic lack of ambition, poor attitude to education and intergenerational cycles of benefits dependency and at times criminal activity. Most of my peers didn't break the cycle despite funding being thrown at them from all angles.

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DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 14:33

Mishmosher · 11/02/2026 13:50

It’s hard to really clamp down on tax fraud when the majority of it was done by small traders and so many people on mumsnet seem to think paying cash in hand (when they suspect the money won’t make it to a self assessment) is fine by them.

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Yes I’ve been shocked by money matters raised on the property threads re
cash in hand
People accepting tax fraud for personal gain

BlackCatDiscoClub · 11/02/2026 14:32

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 11:48

Are left wingers not selfish if they vote to spend other people's money on services and things that will directly benefit them? Ultimately they are voting to enrich themselves in the way that right wingers might vote to pay less tax so that they can keep more of their own money. It's just two sides of the same coin.

Turkeys generally don't vote for Christmas.

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Actually no, and it really shows how you think that you said this. Many left wingers think 'If im doing badly, I'll vote to help myself. If im doing ok, I'll vote to help others'. In the last election I voted for the party that I thought would help others the most because I'm doing ok. Its the compete opposite of the right wing 'im alright Jack' attitude.

Conversely, so many poorly off right wingers who rely on welfare, social housing and the NHS are voting for parties like Reform who would scrap it all! Edit to add: the mentality seems to be, I'll give up all this as long as it stops immigrants getting it too!

DiySteve · 11/02/2026 14:24

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 14:21

What would you do about those that don't pay anything or very little and take an awful lot? I'm not talking about the severely disabled before people pounce. More those that could clearly do more to contribute and don't. Surely you would agree that we need to resolve this too if we talking about people paying their fair share?

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Starmer tried it and failed with the abortive Welfare Reform Bill last year - his back benches rebelled.

Hence why your thread title is so apt.

Original poster

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 14:21

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:51

I think ultimately it's about fairness. And should we be looking at taxing working people more than we already do, when many would argue there are already people/businesses not paying enough. I see what you're saying but that's a very negative light to view hardworking people in. My perspective is more than many people already pay a fair share and others don't and we should equalise that

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What would you do about those that don't pay anything or very little and take an awful lot? I'm not talking about the severely disabled before people pounce. More those that could clearly do more to contribute and don't. Surely you would agree that we need to resolve this too if we talking about people paying their fair share?

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DiySteve · 11/02/2026 14:20

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:56

You're welcome to have a look at the tax wealth bit work campaign if you're interested, plenty of information available online

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Ok, so you don’t have some personal views, then?

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 14:19

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:45

'Tax wealth not work' is quite a big campaign going on at the moment, and I'm support of it. I'm not going to lay out a detailed plan of exactly how that would work on a mumsnet thread to you

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I was just wondering if you actually had any figures etc. you don’t. That’s fine

Assume you are aware most European countries that introduced wealth taxes found them both unsuccessful and damaging and have since backtracked.

There is clear precedent that it is an unsuccessful long term method
Which is why the IFS are against it.

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 14:11

ThatBlackCat · 11/02/2026 13:18

Speak for yourself. Many, many left wing people stay left wing as they get older.

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The majority switch though. We’ve seen this just on simple surveys of those who have won lottery money for example

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:58

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 12:40

'Hmmmm?' Yikes what a smarmy tone.

Yes I have actually looked into research on it and I don't agree with how you've characterised it

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What research ? because countries that have implemented it have fallen foul

appreciate its a widely debated subject as a theory.

but we do see that between 1990 and 2019, most European countries (including Germany, Sweden, and France) abolished their wealth taxes due to administrative costs, capital flight, and low revenue.

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:56

DiySteve · 11/02/2026 13:55

OK, but can you define ‘wealth’ please.

Thx

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You're welcome to have a look at the tax wealth bit work campaign if you're interested, plenty of information available online

DiySteve · 11/02/2026 13:55

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:45

'Tax wealth not work' is quite a big campaign going on at the moment, and I'm support of it. I'm not going to lay out a detailed plan of exactly how that would work on a mumsnet thread to you

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OK, but can you define ‘wealth’ please.

Thx

GrethaGreen · 11/02/2026 13:54

I consider myself left of centre and always have been. I don’t want to pay taxes, but I understand that I need to as I am part of wider society. I am a higher rate tax payer, very comfortable off. I understand that’s partly due to luck and not everyone is as lucky in life. Also luck can turn quickly. I don’t know why I should become a more selfish person as I grow older (I am in my 50s).

I hope we stay Labour. They need time to sort the mess left by the Tories.

Mishmosher · 11/02/2026 13:52

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:49

What is
the more European style system
and how would it benefit everyone more

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Where companies pay for their employees health insurance. My company pays for my health insurance now (I work in the UK) and that money goes to BUPA. That money could be going to the state provider instead, like happens in most of Europe. More funding. They’d have to provide a FAR better service though. My employer pays BUPA because my skills are valuable to them and they want me working, not ill.

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:51

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 13:36

I do think it can be selfish to support left wing policies if you stand to gain from them. For example, if I had six kids would you suggest I was selfless for supporting a lift on the two child benefit cap? I obviously would have a vested interest. Lots of people that work in the public sector or are heavily dependent on the state will support left wing policies because ultimately it benefits them. I'm not above it myself. I supported Labour in my teens and early 20s and leaned left politically. Of course I did! I had barely any money so knew ultimately I wasn't going to pay and would benefit from increased expenditure in the public services I used. Why not fund everything people want if I didn't have to actually pay for it? I haven't become more selfish, it's just now I'm expected to pay for everything.

Note I have explicitly avoided conflating socialism with some left wing policy. The more radical left wing has long departed from "each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Now it is just about meeting people's needs irrespective of their willingness to contribute.

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I think ultimately it's about fairness. And should we be looking at taxing working people more than we already do, when many would argue there are already people/businesses not paying enough. I see what you're saying but that's a very negative light to view hardworking people in. My perspective is more than many people already pay a fair share and others don't and we should equalise that

Mishmosher · 11/02/2026 13:50

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:45

I agree but not before we have a significant clamp down on all tax and welfare fraud and investigate the year on year rising welfare bill

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It’s hard to really clamp down on tax fraud when the majority of it was done by small traders and so many people on mumsnet seem to think paying cash in hand (when they suspect the money won’t make it to a self assessment) is fine by them.

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:49

AlcoholicAntibiotic · 11/02/2026 12:33

I’d actually be happy to pay more tax for better public services, but only if they eliminate the inefficiencies in the system first.

I’d also prefer the NHS to go and the country to move to a more European-style system. It’s simply not fit for purpose and hasn’t been for as long as I can remember.

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What is
the more European style system
and how would it benefit everyone more

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 11/02/2026 13:49

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:45

I agree but not before we have a significant clamp down on all tax and welfare fraud and investigate the year on year rising welfare bill

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I agree but I think tax fraud / evasion is the far bigger problem ££ wise

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 11/02/2026 13:48

It needs to do something to improve the lives of British people. All the evidence is slightly more left wing policies do this.

And they’re only really talking about going slightly left, having been pretty centrist so far.

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:45

Pinkearedcows · 11/02/2026 12:25

I am in favour of a rise in income tax. It is the fairest thing to do.

I agree but not before we have a significant clamp down on all tax and welfare fraud and investigate the year on year rising welfare bill

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:45

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:35

Based on @EasternStandard s question to you on ‘ which of your taxes would you like raised’

you’ve replied that you want wealth taxed
-So is that your wealth and by how much ?
-or other people’s wealth and by how much ?

Assume you mean all wealth
ie
-savings and investments ?
-equity on all property ?
-and all other assets ?

For everyone ?
or just the few ?

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'Tax wealth not work' is quite a big campaign going on at the moment, and I'm support of it. I'm not going to lay out a detailed plan of exactly how that would work on a mumsnet thread to you

DrPrunesqualer · 11/02/2026 13:37

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 12:21

It's a shorthand way of suggesting that we raise taxes on other people. Most of us aren't wealthy so we think it won't impact us. We don't actually want to pay more taxes ourselves. Every single poll shows this. We are only in favour of tax rises when they are done to other people.

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Exactly

Original poster

Bargepole45 · 11/02/2026 13:36

glitterpaperchain · 11/02/2026 13:08

So do you agree that you're suggesting socialism is selfish?

You said they have rent controls without thinking of actual workable policies. so that's where I got that idea

Fot what it's worth I agree the new rent controls won't help anything, I'm just not really sure what that has to do with the conversation

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I do think it can be selfish to support left wing policies if you stand to gain from them. For example, if I had six kids would you suggest I was selfless for supporting a lift on the two child benefit cap? I obviously would have a vested interest. Lots of people that work in the public sector or are heavily dependent on the state will support left wing policies because ultimately it benefits them. I'm not above it myself. I supported Labour in my teens and early 20s and leaned left politically. Of course I did! I had barely any money so knew ultimately I wasn't going to pay and would benefit from increased expenditure in the public services I used. Why not fund everything people want if I didn't have to actually pay for it? I haven't become more selfish, it's just now I'm expected to pay for everything.

Note I have explicitly avoided conflating socialism with some left wing policy. The more radical left wing has long departed from "each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Now it is just about meeting people's needs irrespective of their willingness to contribute.

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