To think free birthing should be entirely banned

You were talking about 5 year olds. Nobody is born aged 5. Well, not on this planet, anyway.

Not true, and with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Mothers dying in childbirth has nothing to do with birth? How embarrassing.

Two of Henry VIII's 6 wives - two of the four who actually gave birth - died in childbirth. As did his mother.

Queen Victoria was only Queen because her cousin died in childbirth along with her baby. She is often criticised now for her dislike of pregnancy and childbirth - but probably much of the reason for that was because every time she got pregnant she was worried that she might not survive the pregnancy.

Newly pregnant women often had their portraits painted so that their loved ones would have something to remember them by if they died, as everyone knew there was a high chance of that happening.

'Natural' childbirth might just be safe if there are no complications, but we all know that there is a high chance of things going wrong; if they do, mother's and baby's chances are vastly higher with medical intervention. It is so easy to be complacent about the past and disregard how dangerous life really was, and just how much safer modern medicine has made this process.

Those who promote 'free' birth are just the same as those who scaremonger to anti-vaxxers; they are evil.

If it were not for medical interventions both I and my DS would undoubtedly be dead. The women responsible for promoting and profiting from this cult are straight up evil imo.

In the 1800's 95% would survive the birth process.

Some would die without medical intervention, not many.

From an informed position no sensible person would choose to free birth. The chances of something going wrong in childbirth are high and can happen without warning. And of course no-one should be prosecuted for precipitous birth (nor miscarriage as some US states try to do) but if your choice to free birth results in a dead or injured baby that otherwise would have been ok then you should be prosecuted because you have acted recklessly and harmed someone else. We do not have total bodily autonomy. Others care about us and our children - we should bear them in mind when we make choices (we will probably make the same choices, of course, but we should not inflict misery on others for a principle that we hold and they either do not/or cannot hold).
And yes, misinformation should be prevented - if this is possible (I doubt it's possible because of the internet).

I would never have a home birth. But watching the ambulance program recently which shows just how bad shortages are I think it’s utter maddness..

Thats nothing to do with birth. Mostly poor sanitation, malnutrition and other diseases or injuries.

The OP said that freebirthing should be banned. I am saying that no woman should be forced to accept any medical intervention she doesn't want, simply because she is pregnant.

I don't agree with the OP about making freebirth illegal, I'd said that in a previous comment. I'm all for people having choice, but that choice needs to be fully informed. To say we would be extinct if medical intervention was needed for birth is misleading and ignores the fact that many mothers and babies would die without medical intervention.

And until about 100 years ago, the rate of neo-natal death and birthing mother death was horrific. In early industrial Britain, the neo-natal mortality rate was so high that the mathematical average life expectancy was age 5. The sole reason those figures changed was the medical profession. What really irritates me is that there are always unqualified people who think they know better than we do, but expect us to pick up the pieces of their botch job, and in a significantly worse situation than we would have been faced with had we been brought in earlier.

I am aware of the differences between freebirthing and home births. I still don't think freebirthing as a practice should be banned. If a women chooses to give birth without a medical professional in attendance, that is her choice to make. No it is not a choice I would make for myself, but it is a choice that can be made from an informed and risk-managed position. And no woman should face criminal investigation for a precipitous birth (possibly freebirthing without choosing to), which seems an inevitable consequence of banning the practice.

What could be regulated is the information or advice FBS gives, from this article it looks like they gave biased, ill-informed and actively harmful advice masquerading as a professional expert service - Imo that is what is most dangerous here.

To explain what I thought was fairly simple to understand ...

The OP or PP said that the practice should be banned because we should be thinking about the vulnerable child (or similar words).

The argument for abortion is that its not a vulnerable child, just a foetus or a clump of cells (as is a full-term baby, or an adult).

There's a hypocrisy there. When pro-lifers talk about that foetus as a child/person they are derided.

And I was pointing out that in both cases the mother takes an action that resulted in the baby dying in the womb and then being evacuated.

You say abortion is not allowed at full-term but effectively that's what these women did.

And my major point is that it seems arbitrary to argue for protecting the child against the mother in one situation, but the mother against the child in the other.

Once abortion existed to protect the life of the mother. Now it's used to select a preferred sex, killing female babies in the process (which reeks of misogyny to me).

I can see the logic of supporting the primacy of the unborn child and arguing for a ban on both freebirth and abortion.

Similarly I can see the logic of allowing both freebirth and abortion.

But why would anyone argue to ban freebirthing but support abortion? There's no rationale for it.

There are so many separate issues here.

Freebirth is not a wise decision but people who have mental capacity are allowed to make unwise decisions. Sometimes it is more unwise than others (a woman who has had 1 or more completely uncomplicated births and a low risk pregnancy freebirthing is very different to a first time, IVF mum aged 41 with gestational diabetes freebirthing).

Homebirth with a qualified midwife is normally a perfectly safe and valid way to choose to give birth.

Allowing women with mental capacity to make all the decisions about her birth right until the moment her baby is born - even if it results in death - is better than the alternative of forcing medical interventions on a non-consenting woman.

There are compelling reasons why some women (particularly women who have faced terrible hospital care for previous births) would want a freebirth. We should not downplay obstetric violence and birth trauma. We should also recognise hospitals are not always the safe places we like to think they are.

All that said, people who lie to women and groom them into dangerous freebirths (particularly for high risk pregnancies) should be criminalised. The things they have done which are already crimes (encouraging mothers not to seek medical attention for ill babies which have been born, lying to law enforcement about whether the baby was born alive, and envouraging illegal burial of newborns) should be severely punished. These people are not friends of women.

Saying that it would still have been safer for them not to take baby and make your partner take baby. If you’d started haemorrhaging or had an eclamptic fit en route to the hospital who’s going to hold the baby while you’re unconscious?

Plenty of ambulance shortages in my area. We’re a very large county and I’ve been in an ambulance on a transfer before and the tech has said they’re the only available ambulance in the county (as we come back into the county).

So just because you call for an ambulance or even two ambulances does not mean they will come. The midwives will do what they can while they wait. Often a fast response car might arrive. I see at the home birth which has had the recent inquest in the media where mum and baby died it was two ambulances. First ambulance took the baby and left. Second ambulance hadn’t arrived at that point.

the big difference in your case is neither of you were ill. You can’t have a paramedic trying to resuscitate a baby and stop a mum from bleeding to death single handed

If id have freebirthed I wouldn't be here and possibly my son would have died. That means I wouldn't have had my other children , and my grandchildren wouldn't exist.

Ambulance shortages are one reason I’d never choose a home birth, and definitely not a freebirth. (I realise sometimes they’re unplanned of course.)

I dont think free birth should be criminalised but your argument dorsnt make sense as abortion is not allowed at full term.

Wow no ambulance shortages in your area.
When I had my unplanned home birth after the hospital sent me home the ambulance arrived a few minutes before the baby came out and we were told it was because it was harvest and there had been several accidents with agricultural machinery and a farmer having a heart attack that day!

They then wanted us to go into hospital to be checked over properly and we both went in the same ambulance, I was strapped onto the bed and holding the baby.

Of course neither of us was ill but if we had been they couldn’t have magicked up a second ambulance given that they only just managed to get that one to me.

They wouldn’t. Not locally anyway. I’m a midwife and I’ve always known two ambulances if both mum and baby are unwell. Because they’d both need a paramedic and someone needs to drive. If baby is ok then mum goes in ambulance and dad follows in the car with baby.

It’s interesting that we leap immediately to criminalisation as a solution. In fact if a woman deliberately chooses to give birth without any medical intervention and the baby dies or is severely injured there are already possible legal penalties (in the UK).

I think a more useful approach though is strong social disapproval. Women who deliberately choose, & plan for, birth without any medical support are no different from women who drive their kids drink, or from say Constance Maarten & her partner, who took steps that resulted in their child freezing to death. In each case they are putting their own autonomy (we’re all allowed to drink or go camping in winter) above their children’s safety and lives. It should be seen as being an arrogant, self-indulgent denial of their helpless child’s right to safety & care.

This is of course free birth I’m talking about, not home birth. Home birth with a midwife isn’t something I would choose (& thank god I didn’t because one of my births developed into an emergency), but it’s not the same as free birth at all.

I found it very difficult to have sympathy for the mothers in that terrible article , any more than I did for Constance Maarten. At best, they deliberately shut their eyes - over months of planning, months! - to the fact they were risking their child’s lives.

A big problem for women who had a baby in hospital and had problems is that those problems are then blamed on having a baby in hospital. .
Nature is unpredictable

Giving birth is the most dangerous moment in our lives and babies lives .

Babies and women die with the best care and equipment .

This.

And the whole concept of banning a woman's choices regarding her body...?

Choosing your post as it is typical, rather than personal.

The thing is no-one is FORCED to take antibiotics, have surgery or have treatment for cancer. Plenty do refuse. It's called choice. Women simply should not be compelled to have medical intervention purely by virtue of being pregnant.

Should all women be taken into care on conception to ensure they don't drink, smoke, take drugs or eat the wrong food? Theres a baby to think of, you know. How many women take their newborns home in the car without giving a second thought to the risk of a car crash? Why, if a pregnant woman is murdered, is the perpetrator not charged with the murder of the unborn aswell?

Why woukd they need 2 separate ambulances for a mum and baby? They would both go in one!