To think free birthing should be entirely banned

Yeah I do think they are usually separate. I think we were lucky that the MLU was on the ground floor and hospital above. So could try the water birth vibe. Then get rushed upstairs when it all went wrong. They did let me have my own room for the night afterwards as I’d tried in the MLU for 40 hours! So that was a bonus.

We’re still talking about a 1/50 chance of death compared to more like 1/8000 chance in the UK in recent years https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/20/maternal-deaths-rising-in-uk-despite-fewer-births-official-figures-show
We’re 160 times less likely to die in childbirth today than in the era of a 98% survival rate.

Trouble is because of this " breech baby have a CS " culture many midwives are losing the skills of delivering them so can't even be guaranteed that the MWs know what to do now

My friend gave birth to twins. The first one she caught in her skirt making her way out of house to hospital ( Jan in Scotland as well lol) and 2nd one vaginal birth of breech baby as they threatened CS but no time as only just got to the hospital

Actually, that 95% survival figure seems to be an underestimate. More like 98%, according to the Cambridge University study in the link.

https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/blog/2024/09/19/childbirth-in-the-past/

I was in a MLU as well. But the nearest consultant unit was an ambulance ride away. So basically same as home birth as far as that concerned but far more facilities like birthing pools etc in every room. There was another MLU in another hospital ( in main building) but nowhere near as good. Much less homely feel ( one of my DGC born there)

Actually some people do give birth to breech babies without intervention. I have seen videos of it and also saw a video on fb recently where someone called 999 because her friend was in labour and the babies feet came out first. The ambulance was on its way but the call handler was telling her to tell her friend to squat and what to do and she gave birth to the baby safely before the ambulance arrived.

5% death rate is a lot ! In england and wales there are around 600 000 birth a year, so that would be 30 000 women dying each year.
Not a stretch to think quite a few of those would be mumsnetters.

In the US (where these crazy free birthers originate) there were 3.6 million births in 2023 so 5% of the mothers dying would be 180 000 women.

Yes giving birth is a natural process but nature is cruel.

So one in twenty die? And if you’re going all natural you may well have eleven kids like one of the internet quacks mentioned in the link.

It’s a complex issue, the interplay between the rights of mothers and the rights of the unborn child. When I used to work with drug and alcohol using mothers, I found it quite disturbing that there was nothing we could really do to protect the baby. Foetal alcohol syndrome and prolonged substance misuse can cause all kinds of lifelong issues. But how would this be enforced? In my ideal world, we’d have wonderful inpatient services where we could detain women with these issues and offer a great level of care and kindness that benefits her as well as protects the baby. But I understand some would read this and find it dystopian, the idea of detaining women for this reason. I think the same principles apply to this free birthing discussion. Either women are allowed to make bad decisions and harm their babies, or they are not.

I know that NHS natal care is not always what it should be - but overall it is still overwhelmingly the safest option. We should campaign for it to be better, not encourage mothers to opt out of it altogether with all the attendant risks.

I remember screaming and begging the doctor treating my post partum hemorrhage to stop. I have never experienced pain like it before or since and it left me with PTSD.

if she had though I would have died. I’m grateful to her for ignoring me and saving my life.

I was supposed to be a predictable second pregnancy as well, and I had considered a home birth which again would have likely killed me.

Home birth - under medical supervision, for a pregnancy judged to be low risk - and with a qualified midwife present - is not the same thing at all as 'free birth' so they should not be equated in any way.

you realise a 95% survival rate means a 1/20 chance of death? Scaled up to population level, that makes many deaths in most people’s books.

Yes it’s such a personal choice and I’m pleased it was successful for you.

Sorry you had an awful experience with hospitals.

It’s hard for me to guess what would have happened if I’d have home birthed. Maybe the mid wives would have picked up on issues with the first delivery and got me in to hospital (but then I would have had a hospital birth anyway!).

Second birth was massive post partum hemorrhage and retained placenta with significant blood loss. No signs that this would happen and I needed a lot of blood quickly. Look I don’t know. I have no idea how a home birth would have gone for me in that situation as it appeared to be an uncomplicated birth.

Maybe I was lucky as I had fantastic midwife care in the hospital and when the shit hit the fan I couldn’t fault them. I know others have had a bad experience which is a shame.

@Delatron I felt lucky to have two incredibly experienced midwives with just me 24/7 so likely any issues picked up at the earliest opportunity. I was absolutely not afforded this in hospital for my first two labours.
Homebirth, for subsequent pregnancies, is just as safe as hospital.
Also, hospital births in UK not great in terms of safety stats compared with other EU countries. Many reasons for that.

It is lucky we all have the choice.

And every birth is different. But I was very glad to be in hospital when mine went wrong very quickly.

I think for me it’s the ambulance issue that is the real problem. If you need to get medical help quickly and there’s a long delay. So obviously a home birth with all the right criteria would be fine. (Ambulances that can get there quickly and not far to hospital) But it’s not a risk I’d be prepared to take.

I was in a Midwife led unit but was very grateful to be whizzed only upstairs when DS heart rate dropped dramatically. I would not have wanted to be waiting hours for an ambulance.

That's a useful statistic to ponder, I think. So, in the 1800s, without so many of the developed medicalised options and knowledge we have available today, 95% of women would still survive the birth process.
Which somewhat opposes the MN view of so many posters who categorically believe they definitely would have died without intervention in labour?

There are awful Facebook groups encouraging this and bashing midwives.

@Delatron Conversely, I would never have a hospital birth.

Have you got a source for that claim?

From an informed position no sensible person would choose to free birth

In your opinion.

I'm somewhat confused why you've latched on to my posts. You are welcome to make your point independently. We disagree about the premise of the thread.

You either didn't read my post properly or you didn't understand it. Either way I'd rather you refrained from misrepresenting what I said. You're free to spout unscientific nonsense if you wish. You are very wrong to twist the words of other posters on order to mount a "critique". The Free Birth movement is reprehensible bordering on criminal.

He did used to visit them, but he was a bit of waster by all accounts, and a heavy drinker. The wider family were all back in Ireland and Scotland.

One of the saddest parts of all was that the boys and girls were split up and put in separate orphanages and didn’t see each other again until they were adults except for in church, where they could wave to each other but weren’t allowed to speak to each other. 😢

No she wasn’t. She was talking about neonatal mortality rate being so bad that the average life expectancy was 5. Do you know what neonatal means?

In early industrial Britain, the neo-natal mortality rate was so high that the mathematical average life expectancy was age 5

It's a mathematical thing - when you add up the age of the dead children, there were so many that died as a result of being born that it dragged the average age of death down. Conversely, increase the survival rate at birth and even if they subsequently died of measles, mumps, consequences of rubella, TB, being run over by carts or getting trapped in factory machinery, etc, the age at which they died means that the average is higher.