To think free birthing should be entirely banned

It’s not down to massaged statistics, no. And there are maternal and infant injuries in hospital that are caused by unnecessary intervention, intervention that wouldn’t have happened if mum had stayed at home. The majority of the ‘it’s a good job we were in hospital because XYZ happened and I/my baby could’ve died’ stories are often the result of hospital practices, like lithotomy, rigid timing of length of labour…. And so on.

Definitely not unreasonable. I had both my babies under 35 when I was "fit and healthy". First baby was a shoulder dystocia that needed three manouvers and several staff to intervene to get him out safely. Second baby was a planned C section as scans showed partial placenta previa. I shudder to think how either of these situations would have gone if I was at home without trained professionals to help me.

On another note, I look after severely disabled children in my work. Lots of these children's disabilities were from birth injuries (HIE). Some of these injuries were bad luck and some were preventable. Obviously those parents love their children but their lives are forever changed. It's different than having a child that was always going to be disabled.

It may not have been in your case but yeah many complications arise due to unnecessary intervention

I can't believe I have to say this, but having a baby at home is not about fecking candles. Will people stop banging on about bloody candles. Not only is it utterly patronising, it totally misses the point.

It is about a minimally stressful environment, avoiding the stress of trying to get to the hospital whilst in labour, about supporting the mental health of a woman who may well have had a very traumatic hospital birth previously, about being able to give birth somewhere that you know is clean and hygienic, giving yourself the best chance of avoiding the cascade of intervention which so often goes hand in hand with giving birth in hospital. When I had my second child at home, I had to have consultant agreement. The midwife came to our house beforehand to check that the house was suitable for a home birth, that it was clean, that we had easy access to the hospital should we need it, that we knew who to call and when, and what would happen. They made sure we knew what would happen if a hospital transfer was needed and that I understood I could go to the hospital at any time for any reason. It was far, far more support than I got with the hospital birth the first time round. It was three hours from start to finish, no intervention, no tearing, no stitches, no trauma.

And no effing candles and music, FFS.

I would probably take the medicine if I had a bad headache.
The second scenario, I'm not sure, I would probably rather wait the 24hrs but if I was advised I should have a section right then and there I would have to trust that was the best decision, I suppose.
I just don't see the point in putting the baby at any unnecessary risk.

The impression I got from the article is that the mothers did want the best for their babies but they had been sold a lie about leaving babies to breathe on their own / not needing medical attention.

Monumentally stupid, but changing the law wouldn't help this and just risk criminalising women who run into problems in late pregnancy.

I do know that, actually. No the hospital didn't cause anything, I knew I was ill before I got there and had symptoms that showed it. Nice of you to try to presume my hospital's staff were to blame for the complications without any evidence whatsoever, and regardless of the knowledge that pregnancy/childbirth complications are common and nobody's fault. And for alluding to my disabled DS as being 'not an amazing outcome'.

I don't share the details of my experience lightly, I have done so because I hope that it may persuade even a few women to ensure they get appropriate medical advice rather than believe the advocates of dangerous 'free' birth on here. But I can't do this any more, I am off this thread.

So you’re pregnant and have a headache and go to buy some paracetamol…the govt have decided it may cause autism and you’re refused service at the chemists. You ok with this?

You’re 36 weeks pregnant and your blood pressure is going up a bit and the consultant says you should have a planned section now to make sure the baby is ok. But the ctg has shown the unborn baby is currently fine. You want to wait 24 hrs to see if the blood pressure medication works and that would mean you can avoid an unwanted section and also baby gets a bit more growing time as you’re worried about them being early. But dr says you have no bodily autonomy and you’re dragged against your will to theatre. You ok with this? Because the baby has just as many rights as the mother yes?

Completely disagree. I believe the baby should have just as many rights as the mother at this point, most importantly the right to enter the world with the best chance of being healthy.

How would you ban it? Force medical interventions on women?

You don't know that actually.
It's possible that being in hospital caused everything to begin and hey, they also saved you
Amazing.
Usually things starts with unnecessary intervention.
Like in my case, they said I needed an induction due to post dates, they insisted at 41 weeks that I needed my baby out.
I had a violent reaction to the pessary, I went from not at all ready to give birth, to fully dilated in just an hour,
Baby got stuck, shoulder dystocia.
Now imagine, they simply waited until 42 weeks?
Or even 43 (in France thats acceptable)
Perhaps that would never have happened? Perhaps I would've started labour naturally.
You see what I mean?
Let's no jump to thinking that medical intervention was at all neccassary.
Same goes for bleeding out,having an induction makes that more likely, simply being in hospital makes negative outcomes more likely.
Even ur story doesn't sound like an amazing outcome, an amazing outcome would've been a normal labour and delivery.

I wasn't keen on it, I found it immensely traumatic (probably due to the vast amount of 'they'll SLICE YOU OPEN' and 'African women don't have rich doctors cutting them up, they get on with it and carrying on working in the fields, you know' (and other such lovely little scraps of racism) meaning I was absolutely fucking terrified, but it was certainly the lesser of all evils.

I'm quite aware thanks My aunt has been a midwife for over 40 years

It doesn't take away from the fact that you might've been ok with being sliced open, not everyone is. People have personal choice ( strangely you haven't mentioned babies that are just breech without POp or other issues

Your ex sounds insane btw

Banned?
I suppose you also don't know that babies and women die in hospitals? At a higher rate than at home or free births.
My own niece nearly died at hospital because she was released home and she had some of the placenta still stuck inside her, she bled out so much at home and when we got her to hospital, they tried to send her home saying we can't see anything wrong, and bleeding seems to have stopped, then we insisted on an ultrasound, where they saw the piece of placenta that had an active blood source.
Next baby she wants a home birth!

And my neighbour died 15 years ago, she had twins, she kept complaining of an headache, doctors just said it was normal, they didn't even bother to check her blood pressure, she had eclampsia and died!
Another lady i know, her baby died, my friends daughter, her son has disabilities due to a birth injury.
These are all hospital births.
Some of these tragedies or all could've been prevented had these babies been born at home.
How is that you don't know about the terrible hospital stats?
It usually starts with intervention, induction, c section and negative outcomes.
Do your research before your self righteous outrage 🙄

You know how babies have pointy shaped heads when newborn? That's because the plates move as they pass through the pelvic outlet and birth canal. The pressure isn't in the same places when the baby's body passes first and it can result in the head trapped inside with the uterus contracting strongly, often with the cord prolapsing at the same time.

Add into that that the reason for a breech presentation can include placenta praevia, the cervix may not fully dilate due to the lack of normal pressure (meaning greater constriction/obstructed labour) and the risks are significantly higher than the Sheila Kitzinger fangirls would ever want to admit.

Of course, you could ask my ex, whose answer to my suggesting that I deprived him of his birth experience by, you know, not wanting to die, was to seriously suggest we went off to the nearest forest at the end of November and I gave birth in a fucking snowstorm to a baby with her head tipped back and her cord wrapped around and between her legs. And he never, ever forgave me not going along with it. I'm sure he'd agree with you.

I hadn't noticed I had latched on to you. Sorry. I do not think home births should be banned but I do think 'free birthing' is dangerous and especially so in a society such as pertains in parts of the US where the expense of a midwife is perhaps impossible to cover. I don't think free birthing should be banned I think the ignorance that makes women think its a good idea should be dispelled.

Thanks for signposting the article. It was distressing read but I’m glad I read it

She delivered a foot-first baby because she was told how - had she been 'free birthing' the outcome might not have been so successful (and from descriptions in the US article, were not). And of course some women will deliver a breech baby easily. But it can't be relied on and to suggest it can is unhelpful to say the least.

For heavens sake, a quick online search gives estimates (before modern medicine) of a risk of around 1% of maternal death per birth and potentially up to 5% for women who have had several children. Whilst this obviously wouldn't lead to human extinction it would certainly mean a very unhappy start to life for many children without mothers. It isn't just the last baby who loses their mother but the previous children in the family too. And it probably leads to a reduced population as fewer mothers survive to have their "replacement level fertility" of 2.1 children - some suggest this figure should be nearer 2.7 to allow for issues such as families not having children.
There's a world of difference between home birthing and so-called "free birthing". I had two of my four children at home, but decided against it the last time because I knew that she was going to be very large and I had a bit of a struggle with my third. Free birthing is downright dangerous, home birthing (when the mother has been thoroughly assessed) is a choice and not normally dangerous.

In my case I called the hospital whilst at work because I felt a little unwell, 28 weeks into what had been up till then a straightforward pregnancy with no complications and no underlying health issues.

Luckily I was urged to get to the hospital asap. It was surreal....after rushing around town from work, changing buses etc I arrived. As soon as they checked my blood pressure that was it.....by the end of that day I was recovering from an emergency CS & my DS was in an incubator. The first time my body had failed to do what it was tasked to do; it was a shock to me.

Although I had PTSD & my DS has lifelong disabilities, I count it overall a success - because we both survived. If I had gone the 'free birth' route we would be dead. I do feel for others who were traumatised by the birth as I was, unfortunately it is common. But it is still better to be alive.

Those who are pushing this 'free birth' cult have blood on their hands imo. Still as long as they are coining it through exploiting women's vulnerabilities and fears, that's the main thing eh?

Well she hardly had much choice in the matter did she with babies falling out in her front garden lol. My brother was a 9lb 9 oz breech baby. They didn't know until bum appeared first. 2 .5 hour labour Fortunately midwives were more used to breech births then..

All births are full of risks if you look at it

Huh? Babies have been born breech for years. . I've never heard of a decapitated one. And midwives should still keep the skills up. Or are you forcing invasive surgery on women again?

Thank you. I’m not sure how an experience and opinion can be wrong.

They can disagree with me sure and have a different opinion.

Homebirths are almost nonexistent in France because no professional medical insurance agencies will insure the midwives for it. There are lots of independent midwives who do antenatal care and postnatal care, including home visits, but since no one will insure them to attend births outside of a hospital setting, homebirth attended by trained midwives isn’t an option.

Why is it wrong? It's her experience and opinion after the event?