To think free birthing should be entirely banned

Yes, the narrative that women don't ever need help blames countless mothers for their own deaths. Some of these deaths are due to better sterilisation of equipment, but the truth is that there WILL always be births that need medical help, and to say otherwise is wholly untrue and harmful.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3511335/

Cord round neck - baby had severe oxygen deprivation, now has cerebral palsy. If it was not a hospital birth it would be dead.

Once more, nuchal cords do not deprive babies of oxygen. If this baby was deprived of oxygen it was for some other reason, not the cord around the neck. A prolapsed cord can do this, but for a nuchal cord to cause reduced blood flow is very very rare, the ‘risks’ are exaggerated as it’s a perfect ‘no-fault’ scapegoat for hospitals

You are deliberately giving snap-shots of these situations, drip-feeding information to make it sound like these are common risks. There’s so much detail missing, pertinent detail, and because I’m aware of how often best practice is ignored in obstetric situations I’m willing to guess that there’s much more to each of your stories, but it suits your “we must all give birth in hospital or every mother and baby will DiE” narrative.

Well done for completely devaluing experiences of other women... Yes of course its all natural. But dying in childbirth is also "natural".

Cord round neck - baby had severe oxygen deprivation, now has cerebral palsy. If it was not a hospital birth it would be dead.

My cousin bled because of some rare genetic abnormality only detected after birth. She ended up with a hysterectomy. Would be dead if was giving birth at home due to the volume of blood loss.

My child was in distress and close to not making it as he could not get out. He was out only due to surgery. Would have died otherwise.

Interesting article(s). My third baby was born at home (planned, it was my second home birth) with the cord wrapped around her neck (and she was absolutely fine, born in the pool, delayed cord clamping, no complications... just had to be untangled as she made her way up out of the water!).

Or umbilical cord wrapped around baby's neck - in my friend's case.
Nuchal cord is not dangerous, that’s a myth used to scaremonger women into hospital.

https://www.rachelreed.website/blog/nuchalcords

Or massive bleed after placenta separated - my cousin.
Was this a physiological third stage or did they clamp & cut the cord immediately, inject her with syntocin and pull the placenta out by the cord?
https://www.rachelreed.website/blog/active-management-placenta

Or my baby being a "stargazer" and refusing to turn over.
not dangerous; https://www.rachelreed.website/blog/in-celebration-of-the-occipito-posterior-baby

Agree with you in every sense - no one should ever have a choice forced upon them in any instance. The grey area around childbirth is the extent to which you can have ‘control’ of the situation - some might get lucky and their birth plan goes perfectly. (I suppose I was one of them - opted for an elective C-section, which went very smoothly.) But many people will have matters taken out of their hands if circumstances change - I was the only one in my NCT group opting for an elective C-Section, but recall most ended up have one. Plans change depending on the needs of the mother and the baby. It doesn’t sound to me as though free birthing is responsive to circumstances changing - more of a ‘what will be will be’ approach, nature doing its thing. At what point does the choice you make on behalf of a newborn baby tip into negligence? I don’t understand how the advice not to call emergency services in the event of a labour lasting six days (tragically ending in stillbirth - per the article) or a newborn struggling to breathe - doesn’t leave people exposed to lawsuits?

I don't think it is straightforward by any means, seriously. From the moment I was pregnant the baby was everything to me. It was a really complicated pregnancy and by the time I got to the point of giving birth (by C-section, which was necessary for medical reasons but which I would also have elected for reasons personal to me had it not also been required) the only bullet point on the birthing plan that my NCT leader insisted on me preparing was "baby and mother survive". So I personally completely agree with you and I will never understand why some mothers put their birthing experience above their baby's best interests and survival. But I am politically 100% pro-choice and for women's physical and mental autonomy, and the only way that works is if the mother has complete control over her body until her baby is born. So that's where I draw the political line, but I agree that it is a hard line to draw, and it doesn't stop me from being very blunt in my own views where I think that a poor decision is being made.

The difficulty with this point of view is that giving birth isn’t just about what’s best for the mother - it’s also about the wellbeing of the child. The Guardian’s expose was both upsetting and infuriating because there were clearly instances where maternal choice carried irreversible and devastating consequences for their babies. That’s not to say that errors in judgement don’t happen in hospital environments, and clearly questions need to be asked if failures in maternal and neonatal care are encouraging some women to shun all medical support during pregnancy and childbirth. Unsatisfactory standards of care are widely acknowledged, but women making the choice to free birth must live with that responsibility, that their baby will be impacted - especially if things go wrong.

The founders of the Free Birth Society clearly know that forgoing all medical care comes with higher risks, which is why they try and normalise instances of stillbirth or infant mortality - I’m paraphrasing, but they preach something along the lines of ‘no one will grow a baby they can’t birth.’ It was horrifying to read about mothers watching newborns struggle for breath, which was encouraged by the FBS. Yes, people shouldn’t be forced into medical procedures they don’t want - by all means refuse a transplant, or a transfusion or a vaccine - that’s on you. But don’t impose your autonomy on a baby by buying into free birth - they don’t have the luxury of choice.

Post natal checks, they monitor your temperature, take your blood
occassionally get it wrong and miss something terrible, but balance of probability

I found childbirth awful, but I think if I’d had a clearer knowledge of just how painful and messy and distressing it can be, even for a normal birth, it would have been found less awful

How does being in a hospital for a few hours after birth prevent infection? More germs there id have thought

It isn't just the giving birth, it is also the risk of infection afterwards.

I can't imagine that my signed consent form prior to attempting a ventouse delivery including a list of potential complications in case they had to proceed urgently to section was unique to the UK in 1999, personally.

As long as women birthing in hospital have the sign the same form. They acknowledge that birth carries risks and there is no guarantee they won't have complications, including ones induced by interventions (forceps, induction leading to c-section, etc) and they won't take action if it goes wrong. After all, birth carries risks for all and they chose to have a baby, so take that risk.

Like the absence of medical treatment, you mean?

Also, we must not forget that one of the leading causes of death in postpartum women is associated with mental health e.g. suicide.
It matters.
The birth process should never be: "Well the baby is healthy and that's all that matters."
Absolutely it is not.

@NeverDropYourMooncup You don't think there are a huge wealth of confoundong variables at play in both history and underdeveloped countries?!!!
Birth is not life and death - just look at the 1800s statistic quoted (and that was obviously many years ago so again, confounding variables).

You want to check history and what happens in countries where care isn't freely available,

Explain to me how doctors might have caused eclampsia?.. Or umbilical cord wrapped around baby's neck - in my friend's case. Or massive bleed after placenta separated - my cousin. Or my baby being a "stargazer" and refusing to turn over. None of these would be fixed by doing it at home without medical help.

A week post date due date - firstly, no one would have given you an induction without your consent, so stop this bull. Secondly, you are aware that the longer the baby is overdue, the more is the risk its going to be stillborn. Seems like a reason enough to me, but you be you.

@NeverDropYourMooncup Birth really isn't "a life and death situation" for the vast majorty of women. It is ultimately a natural and normal physiological process that our bodies are designed to do.

birth isn't supposed to be a life and death situation.

That's exactly what childbirth has been throughout history.

Yes I have twins myself and they wanted to give me a c section because my 1st one was breech but I said no I will give birth naturally but unfortunately they went transverse during the labour so I ended up having one anyway.

What a stupid comment tell that to the millions of women and babies who have died in childbirth over the years.

When you opt for a homebirth you have the risks explained to you. When my consultant finished listing the risks of homebirth, I asked him to list the risks involved in hospital birth. And yes, there are documented risks associated with hospital birth, but no one talks about them.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30063-8/fulltext

I had a baby on my own
he was my 3rd child and I had my first 2 at home with a midwife
so my third child wasn’t progressing properly so I gave up my home birth and went to hospital where they promptly told me I was not in labour and sent my DH home
a couple of hours later in a side room on my own I gave birth to my baby alone
the midwife’s had tutted at me telling me I’m not in labour earlier and then left me to it

I did a little smug ‘told you’ when they eventually came into me but I am still traumatised 16 years later

I just rang my husband and took my baby home after that - my one hospital birth was a shit show and soon after that maternity wing closed down

I did feel sort of special and private and like it was all about me and my baby I can’t explain it but I can see why women want to free birth

I wouldn’t choose it but when it happened by accident it left me feeling many emotions (relief, strength, trauma) all at the same time