To think free birthing should be entirely banned

I do understand what you're saying but I really think this is a slippery slope. Women can't properly consent while in pain so should have the 'right' decisions made for them? How much pain is too much? Who makes the decisions?

I also think you underestimate women a bit here. Even in excruciating pain, most of us make massive sacrificing decisions for our babies. My epidural started to wear off in my c-section, it was really clear my child was going to die if they didn't get out immediately, so I chose not to say anything in case it slowed the delivery down leading me to faint on the table. Ok, that was clearly the 'wrong' decision but most mothers will do absolutely anything to make sure their baby is delivered safely. I don't think women are refusing interventions because they are putting themselves first while in pain.

And? Probably because most births are in hospital. And those with complications seen during later stages of pregnancy have a hospital birth.
My grandson died because my DIL fell down the Free Birthing rabbit hole. Encouraged by a local Doula (unqualified in anything medical). This was just over a year ago.

My son went along with the theories but late in the pregnancy the Free Birthing Cult like mantras she came out with had us challenging them. The main one was that hospitals purposely do 'terrible procedures' during births that cause harm.
The Doula promised that her birth would be pain free and she would orgasm at the point of delivery. Other really deluded ideas as well.
She is a highly intelligent , educated woman but something about the cult of FB just caught her. I do call it a cult as that's exactly what it felt like to us as we were all prevented from challenging any if the theories and shut down.

This was a much longed for first pregnancy (after several miscarriages and failed rounds of IVF) and she was 41.

Baby was breech. We pleaded for her to go to hospital as it was also 2 weeks overdue.

They did go.

They were advised to stay as baby was at risk. I believe she was recommended a C Section.

She left after speaking to the Doula who convinced her she could still Free Birth at home. None of us knew this at the time.

Over the following 48hours, he died inside her. The local midwife had been involved overseeing her care (as much as they would let her) and she came to monitor the heartbeat. It was no longer beating.

She was then admitted, refused the recommended C Section again and chose to go through an induced labour delivering a dead child 16 hours later.

The trauma of this had been huge and they both have had therapy to untangle all the awful feelings and 'what if' emotions that came after. I don't think they'll get over it.

I am involved with local wellness things and this Doula was infiltrating them and peddling very dangerous theories. Fortunately we live in a small town and she was removedfrom local baby groups/ pregnancy sessions/ social media groups etc.

They paid her several thousand £ and she never even sent condolences to them afterwards saying that it was 'their journey' and she wasn't responsible for any of their decisions despite her being a the key influence right up to the last minute.

I would just like to say that for every woman who just 'pops one out' there is another who can have complications that can risk both mother and child.

I had a home birth back in 1994 and it was fine. But that was just me.

I think informed consent is very difficult in childbirth, as in the moment you are often so addled with pain and exhaustion you can’t make a clear decision . And the risks of making a wrong decisions are so high it is better to err on the side of caution and intervene , and sometimes to intervene drastically. The benefit of hindsight only comes after, and you never know how your own scenario might have played out

I would not be surprised if there were some crossover between the ‘it’s Godswill’ ultra Christian right and the Freebirth influencers. There’s a whiff of eugenics about it.

Yes, lots of misogyny in the 'you just want candles' view.

I get so frustrated that home births get brought into these discussions, it is nowhere near the same thing

free birthing in my view is a mad choice, there are so many variables in childbirth and I just can’t understand how a woman wouldn’t want medical assistance on hand

home birthing is simply choosing the right environment to give birth in, with medically trained professionals there if you need them. I’d personally feel uneasy if a hospital wasn’t nearby but that’s my take

childbirth has been made into something that many women suffer and survive, a lot of us come away from it feeling powerless and violated. Dismissing home births as “you’re not putting your baby first because you want candles” just shits on a great option for those who don’t want an overly medicalised birth

If you go back far enough, third of women used to die in childbirth!

Basically our huge heads are difficult to birth - but mother nature decided a 2/3 birth success rate is worth the increased intelligence. Which is probably is, but doesn't mean birth without any medical intervention isn't super risky

Yes and its NHS. Unfortunately I think they've closed it this year HOWEVER it was never publicicised by the GPs or the community midwives when booking it. You had to be pro active to get in and ring them direct. Although with everybody on the Internet these days far more people are aware. I assume the Braintree unit its moved to is similat

Need more places like that

Sounds amazing! Unfortunately many people don't get this great experience, particularly those who are deemed high risk.

Also, even though it's unpalatable, I think if a woman in an MLU is experiencing complications but she wants to refuse being transferred, her wishes should be honoured. A lot of these places sort of insinuate that you're not "allowed" to stay if there are problems which I think possibly pushes some women to attempt very risky things like freebirth.

That's heartbreaking, and actual murder (or it should be.)

DS was fine after birth but his oxygen levels dropped when we were in the recovery room so he was given oxygen (on this fancy cot that sort of blew it over him.) He nearly got taken off to SCBU (and was two days later for something different) but they got them up enough for him to spend the first night with me. That was slightly worrying!

Freebirthing is very dangerous, but I don't think it should be made illegal. The problem is, outlawing it would inevitably result in criminalising innocent women like those who give birth very quickly before they can get medical care, or vulnerable women and young girls with concealed or unrecognised pregnancies.
I also suspect that some of the women who are drawn to freebirthing are struggling with birth trauma from previous experiences, or other trauma. Given how often women are treated badly by midwives, and all the maternity scandals we hear about, they need proper support, not to be arrested.
I do think the groups promoting it should absolutely be banned though.

Actually most of that sounds like the MLU that DS was born in. The birthing rooms were Individual with pools, birthing balls etc and an en suite bathroom

After you had a choice of how long you could stay ( not sure if fathers could as DS born at 7am and I didn't stay overnight) up to 10 days.They even had washable nappies for the babies and midwives around to help with breastfeeding or if you chose to bottle feed there was small prepared bottles

Although some posters on here wouldn't like that place either as if there were complications then its a trip to another hospital for consultant led care

I support women who choose to have an abortion within the limits defined in law. My post was in response to a poster who compared women choosing to free birth to people who choose to do dangerous things and risk their own lives quite legally.

The babies referred to in the Guardian article who died or who suffered permanent disabilities were all much wanted babies whose mothers genuinely thought they were doing the right thing.

The two women ex-doula Emilee Saldaya and fellow ex-doula Yolande Norris-Clark are the ones to blame for the babies' deaths and disabilities and they sound dangerously unhinged:

'Friends say Saldaya often took her ideological cues from her business partner. After Norris-Clark decided she did not believe in gravity, Saldaya announced she was no longer “round [Earth] committed”. When Norris-Clark said she no longer believed in germ theory, Saldaya told friends she did not wash her hands. When Norris-Clark said she no longer identified as a feminist and wished to submit to her husband, Saldaya quietly stopped marketing the podcast as “radical feminist”.

After Norris-Clark tacked rightwards politically, Saldaya followed. She began to promote wild pregnancy, a term Norris-Clark invented, meaning pregnancy without any prenatal care'.

Home births with a qualified midwife in attendance bear no resemblance to what happened to these women who were told not to have any checks or scans during pregnancy and who were left to labour alone, in some cases for more than seven days.

I really think that if all women were guaranteed a hospital birth where it was comfortable, their partners could reasonably sleep over night, they had access to proper food, they had access to birth pools, the midwives were responsive, they were not pressured into continuous monitoring or internal examinations if they didn't want them, postnatal rooms were single AND if things started to go tits up they were given real, properly informed choices (including the choice to refuse intervention) ... the amount of freebirths would be even more miniscule.

Of course, that would take proper resourcing and a complete overhaul of the appalling attitudes that some medical professionals have about birthing mothers.

Sounds almost medieval. They were very into women suffering during childbirth, because of Eve's transgressions, all the way up into Victorian times when anesthetics were invented, and there was a bit of religious backlash against it then.

That wasn’t the argument fwiw.

I think all women would want to prioritise their baby’s safety as well as their own safety.

The problem is they are sometimes being misled about what’s safe. Free birthing has the potential to be very unsafe. Childbirth has always been risky for women and remains so today. It’s clear from what OP linked that women were being misinformed about their risk.

I drew a clear distinction in my post between the legal position and the morality of the issue.

If I agree that they were manipulated does that mean that they are innocent of infanticide? Because they paid a lot of money to be manipulated.

If a man is manipulated by incels into sexual assault does that make him innocent of the crime?

I'm sorry but I think that a mother owes her unborn child a duty of care.

Fair enough.

I don't think babies have any legal rights at all until they are actually born

I have read your posts and you've clarified you would ban freebirthing, even if there was an emphasis on prosecuting organisations giving misinformation, how would this not end up criminalising the mothers?

Edited to clarify - I broadly agree re criminalising misinformation but I don't see how you can ban the practice without criminalising mothers and there have been plenty of examples given of how this could affect eg. precipitous births

On that i totally agree!!!

The group were/are nutters.
As far as I'm concerned they should be prosecuted for falsely practicing medicine and/or taking millions from unsuspecting mothers.