to think we're all being manipulated

Far from being tin eared, I would suggest the OP is actively questioning and listening. You, and others up thread, seem to have ignored the fact that the OP have said quite clearly that mass unchecked immigration needs to be addressed. Quite why having a questioning attitude (healthy IMHO) and looking for nuance and what's not being addressed by those with agendas who run the media makes anyone responsible for finishing off the country is pretty baffling. I take it you feel happy to insult her based on the fact that she doesn't hold the same opinions as you?

The scene was set for this many years ago when those who believed that immigration numbers needed to be controlled for successful integration could not raise the issue without cries of "racist".

I tried to discuss this way back but you would think I was an axe murderer I got jumped on so fast. It didn't matter how much I said this is about assimilation and controlling the numbers and rate of immigration and not about race, religion or culture the response was "racist" from the unthinking. Because we could not have that conversation in an adult way years back we are now where we are.

Such a shame.

By fighting age men, they just mean that - of an age to join an army.
I do agree with your main points, though OP , these are worrying times and strategies to deal with migration/asylum seekers/refugees is massive problem throughout Europe. There needs to be an intelligent and humane solution - and fairly quickly.
These anti migrant stories are multiplying by the day.

The party line isn't a physical rope that can be towed along 😄

Does this happen, though? Serious question.

As far as I can see, public discourse has been increasingly dominated by immigration for over a decade. We spent hundreds of billions of pounds on Brexit and tipped the country’s economic security and future down the drain largely because of the public’s feelings about immigration. Our leftwing Prime Minister gave a speech a few weeks ago about us becoming an ‘island of strangers’.

I’m just not sure that this narrative about left-wingers stifling debate by yelling ‘bigot’ is true. If anything, I think the converse is true - we’ve got ourselves in an absolute hole by overindulging racists.

You know that it's all absolutely manipulative BS because no one actually proposes policies that reduces the need for immigration.

That would involve a massive investment in education, especially EYFS/ KS1 to ensure every child in this county reached their full potential. Then you'd match up training opportunities with skills shortages etc. You'd have programs that targeted young teens to put them on an excellent career path.

But no one is actually looking to "solve" the problem; they just want to gain political traction from it.

I think you're right to an extent, OP, but the opposition isn't helping itself. I've muted three people this past week who would claim to be progressive left wingers and have been posting stuff in absolute sheer contempt of what they imagine is the sole demographic of people with concerns about immigration. Crap AI images of fat, red-faced, badly dressed, stupid-looking people waving flags and neglecting their equally fat and unhealthy children who are being left to gorge on fast food. Perhaps I'm showing my own prejudices in imagining that these characters aren't supposed to represent intelligent, middle class graduates? Either way, this isn't helping.

Yes we're all being manipulated!

I love your typo! 🤣
Sorry, I do know what you mean, but it did make me laugh 😂

Why did we have until recently the highest number of asylum claims in 2002/3 if it was only Brexit? And why do countries still in the EU have the same issues with migration and political pressure as we do?

The Left can't meme though.

Reform (as UKIP, obviously) are effectively the architects of the small boats crisis. It’s now a true crisis and that’s largely because of Brexit. Not only that, it’s an incredibly predictable consequence of Brexit, and was discussed extensively at the time of the referendum.

Yet now Reform are somehow managing to convince people that they’re the solution to the problem. A problem with their fingerprints all over it.

I think that more than anything illustrates the extent to which the voting population are being played.

YANBU op. I completely agree with you.
I think many peoples views’ on the issues you mention are the height of absolute ignorance - all I can think is our education system has seriously failed! They do not understand the foundations of a democracy and the huge huge advantage in social cohesion. I wish sociology and politics were compulsory subjects in schools because most people have zero understanding of how the world works; as we live in it today, and also lessons learnt & societal evolutions that have occurred in history.

I am wondering how any of this serves Starmer and his broken administration given he is likely to be kicked out soon?

I am wondering how the impending recession serves ‘big business’ given it’s likely to ruin them?

I am wondering how this serves the lefties who think they can tax ‘the rich’ to oblivion if the rich are long gone because of this unfolding nightmare?

I am wondering how this serves the civil service given their jobs depend on enough revenue to pay for their fat salaries?

I am wondering how this will even serve Reform given they will be tasked with the Labour clean up most likely?

The only possible beneficiary that I can genuinely see is the Russia/China axis.

I am sure they are enjoying this spectacle. Given they supported Labour and campaigned heavily in their favour, predicting correctly they would be a weak and ineffectual government. I would say they have probably concluded it was money well spent.

There is more than one way to win a Cold War.

When I talk about Metoo by the way Its not because I have a problem with the intention. I mean the main problem with it was that no real change happened. At all. And that's not the fault of the people sharing stories, or trying to get justice for very horrible crimes against them. It's just that social media gives the impression it's empowering people to share their own stories and have a voice but really it's forcing it's own voice into other people's heads. Like some Eldritch monster.

Thanks for sharing this @AlorsTimeForWine, really interesting.

I agree very strongly with your opening post, @newbluesofa… and that’s not because I think I’m a genius or have any insight beyond anyone else, it’s just seems very obvious to me what they’re doing and why they’re doing it.

Thank goodness you've said this so I don't have to try to promote Gary :)

Trouble is, there must be so much going on behind the scenes that makes it very difficult for even well-intentioned politicians to do anything. The ones who aren't incentivised by money would surely be threatened in some way.

Scapegoating is a strategy as old as time - choose an "outsider" group, other them, blame them, distract from home grown/ much more complex and deep seated problems that are infinitely harder to solve.

It's not new.

Sometimes internal enemies are scapegoated, sometimes a war or cold war does the trick... Sometimes both... Thatcher did it with the Falklands war. Smaller groups like a sports team or company sometimes do it by scapegoating an individual or small group if things are going to pot, and countries have always done it by picking a group of people who the majority can see as outsiders- foreigners, unemployed people, "benefit cheats", a certain religion...

Most of us know it's a phenomenon

I was going to post that exact cartoon.

As my DH says, where is all the money?

Oops clicked YABU by mistake.

I think most of us will be indebted already or at some point soon to "immigrants", non- nationals, whatever the right term is, who work for us in the NHS. And of course other areas of our lives.

Not saying it isn't having serious affects on housing etc, just that we're turning a blind eye to how they help the economy and other benefits.

My DH says the same as you, too.

He also says a colleague likes to say "Never underestimate the power of stupid people" who will blindly vote as sheeple.

Its not about not discussing the issues themselves. Its about how people are being fed (and that's the right word. We are passive receivers of content on a lot of sites) certain narratives. I actually think they make it harder to discuss the real issues in a serious way because its like floating on an external sea of different sorts of outrage. Mens sexual violence against women is a serious issue and the very start of the Metoo movement was about serious issues and women were sharing their experiences in good faith..it was swelled by social media into a vast hysterical narrative (most women talking about it weren't hysterical btw. It's the actual internet that's hysterical). There was a backlash that was also swelled into something monsterous by social media and nothing was done.

There were real concerns around the level of migration in Springfield Ohio. People who understood why and agreed with the reasons migration there had increased also had nuanced reasons for worrying certain aspects and not much of a platform for sharing. JD Vance made sure it was impossible to talk about those actual.issues by talking about "Dogs and Cats". He wasn't drawing attention to local issues. He was sucking all the oxygen out of the debate. And I think it was a deliberate strategy. And I think it's is one that Dominic Cummings understands well.

Really hoping Andy Burnham is going to make a move into mainstream politics, in my opinion he would make a great leader of the Labour party.

Also known as the "dead cat" strategy. In the middle of a crisis slam a dead cat on the table. Everyone has to deal with the stink while the original problem is diminished.