Trying to salvage friendships after a terrible holiday

I don't actually think hitting is 'to be expected' beyond the age of 2. Arguing and tantrums, yes, but my child knew not to hit others at 4.

You will not be able to control how the other women feel towards each other now. If they bring the situation up with you individually just acknowledge it was a bit of a nightmare but don't get into specifics.

Don't get involved, they will shoot the messenger and bond over criticizing you. If they ask you directly, I would just say it's a shame the kids didn't get on better, and hopefully they will grow out of it.

Children fall out, especially 4 year olds. At that age they are only really beginning to navigate 'friendships'. They don't have the skills that older children have to deal with conflict. You can't expect 3, 4 year olds to play together nicely without any hiccups along the way. It sounds as if the boy and the girl involved, don't really know each other particularly well either. The children are different with individual personalities, and sometimes children clash and don't get on. One of the children has a very young sibling too, which is something they are navigating emotionally. Honestly, this isn't your problem to solve! It's between the other two women, and you'd be better off, not involving yourself. Don't allow yourself to become 'peacemaker' or 'piggy in the middle'. They are both grown adults, who needs to sort this out themselves.

When I say emotionally switched on I mean from my experiences ( I have a DD) she’s a roller coaster of emotions at the moment.

I switched off once you said girls are ‘more complex and get away with more’….???????

how are you saying this?? Girls actually aren’t ‘complex’ we’re ( I’m guessing you’re a woman) just a bit more emotionally switched on than boys at that age, I think there’s good and bad traits between sexes at this age.

I think you’ve clearly got an opinion on both parenting styles and children’s behaviour with these two friends.

I went away with 3 others, all had same ages apart from one was a bit younger, All girls.

Its ruined our friendship and I doubt I’ll ever do something like that again.

Everyone’s parenting styles is different, you have kids that are crazy and loud in the mornings and don’t listen as much or kids that are quieter and might like their own space.

If you want to try and help your friends past this then you need to help guide them both, hash it out, invite them over for tea, no kids, talk it out.
If you can’t see a way of this resolving then leave it.

As another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more (maybe, I dunno) I don't think she was intentionally malicious in any of this, but I do feel bad for the other friend who was essentially told her daughter is a shit stirrer

You think the 4 year old girl maliciously taunted another 4 year old into hitting her multiple times.

Blame your sexist bullshit and some shitty supervision and parenting for a 4 year old boy hitting a 4 year old girl multiple times. You're coming really close to blaming the victim because "boy mom" boys will be boys sexist mindset and your friendceith the violent son is already there.

That's the real problem here, not your friends venting.

in her view, the girl was teasing and winding her son up, which was just as bad as hitting, and she was annoyed that only her son was being told off.

as another boy mum, I do know that sometimes boys act up in a way it's easier to scold, whereas girls can be a bit more complex/clever and perhaps "get away with" more

I think you should read what you've said here and really think about what you are saying. Do you agree with your friend that winding someone up is as bad as hitting them? Do you really think girls are more complex/ clever and are secretly badly behaved?

I think boys are lovely and I think men can be lovely. But it is at this age when their bad behaviour is excused and defended when parents can really make a difference to what kind of man they are bringing up. In my (fairly considerable) experience boys' bad behaviour is often not dealt with firmly and is instead explained away by 'boys will be boys' 'boys are just different, they're so much more physical' etc when they are not told not to do it enough. I'm a fan of gentleness generally with small kids, partly because they know you mean it when you are firm. Kids using violence need to be told no very firmly, whatever the supposed reason for them doing it. It is perfectly possible to tell someone off firmly while still thinking they're a good person and then discuss how they were feeling later. I think you're backing the wrong friend here.

Sounds me like the little girl found an effective way of getting some attention but regardless the boy should not be hitting - at 4 they are old enough to have other ways of dealing with provocation.

First poster gave good advice about a response to both that doesn't invite being drawn into the drama. If boy mum isn't happy about it that tells you something about her.

I'm sorry, tough situation to be in.

I have one of each and detest the boy mum narrative, e.g they're more loving, they're more easygoing, they're just simpler. The internalised misogyny runs deep with these mums.
Presumably they also believe that men are 'visual creatures' that curiously cannot see overflowing bins, wash baskets, hungry children, homework diaries etc. What a conundrum!

Anyway. Based on your belief that the girl probably deserved to be hit multiple times because of x, y or z, I'm out, but perhaps this should be less about quarrelling adults post-holiday and more about the messages you'll no doubt foist upon your (reads Boy Mum notes) loving, easy, simple boy child about accountability, violence and how conniving and manipulative women are and that they deserve physical punishment.

I agree 3 4 year olds who don't all know each other well.being together so much for a couple of days was a bad idea...but you live and learn !!

I think you should tell.both friends they need to grow up and not let the behaviour of 4 year olds impact their friendship

By the way my son was very rambunctious at 4 but he absolutely did not hit other children! And im.surprised you think this is normal .

Ultimately the adults should have taken control and stepped in to guide the play much more when it became clear that these very young children were struggling to regulate themselves.

This exactly. If kids this age, particularly if they don’t know each other well, are falling out, being manipulative and hitting each other, the fault lies initially with the not so present adults. That’s the point that needs to be addressed. May be best if the friends meet up without the kids in the short term.

Don’t get involved

This is crazy. This boy was hitting a little girl and you and the boy's mum thinks she was asking for it?
You seem to agree that girls can provoke violence in their male playmates? For fun, is that the idea?
This is such a messed up dynamic.
I only have a son and I really hate the mum-of-boys speil where girls are painted as manipulative and difficult and our boys are so straighforward and loving and hey what's a bit of casual violence between four year olds??
In my world a four year old hitting other kids is not just one of those things that happens. It's really not good.
Sorry, no advice on how to salvage any of these friendships it all sounds way too toxic for me.

Christ sake. Stop this “boy mum” bullshit.

i have one of each. 4 is too old to hit more than once. The first time it happened, it should have been parented appropriately and not allowed to happen again. No excuses.

Just stay out of it and refuse to be drawn in.

Honestly, I couldn't be bothered with this shit.

We once went on holiday with friends and their children (preschoolers and two 5 year olds). Both sets parented very differently and there were tensions straight away. After the holiday the friendship cooled quite a lot and it was several years before a level of contact slowly resumed, although it has repaired itself now and all of the children are adults.

Stay back from it, make clear that you won't be getting involved and give everything and everyone space. It will probably subside, if you let it

I would not get drawn into it.
Surely the time to address this was while you were all there together. Quite odd that the other two should choose to go away together to then effectively ignore each but oh well. The time has been and gone and what’s done is done.
Each of them going to you to rehash what happened are probably just processing their thoughts and not actively looking to you for advice or your point of view. I really don’t think any good would come of you pulling up either one of them or attempting to play mediator. They seem keen to avoid each other. That’s their choice but you don’t need fall outs of your own to deal with, because of them deciding they didn’t want to address this with each other.

Just say ‘ Oh my god, I really don’t want to get involved in this, it’s between the two of ye!’
Really don’t think much of either of these women for trying to get you involved and on their side

I will go against the grain and say sometimes the “innocent” seeming child is far from innocent! However, hitting is unacceptable and had I been Boy Mum I would’ve just hovered all the time while they were playing.

Unless that’s what Boy Mum did, and how she has come to the conclusion that Girl was winding him up? I have been on family holidays where one child is always telling on another and things aren’t as they seem, and it is exhausting, so I do have sympathy with Boy Mum if she in fact did witness Girl being really unkind to Boy and that was at the root of him lashing out.

Had I been in that position (some 4 year olds are still trying to control their temper at that age) I would’ve had to remove my DC and done activities away from the group, which would have made things very awkward!

Either way, echo all the advice you’ve had previously - stay out of it, neutral language.

Stay out of it. You have to be very careful who you go on holiday with kids I find. We had a couple of friends where we knew that we all had similar parenting styles and the kids all got on. We only ever went on holiday with them.

You realise this quite soon. Don’t go away with them again.

I agree with pp that it sounds like the boy's mum is being very unreasonable here. She needs to stop victim blaming and deal with her son (I say that as a parent of both sexes). I understand it's awkward for you to say that though.

The trials and tribulations of holidaying with friends and their kids.
You can't fix this.
I think you need to stay out of it.
I can see both sides of the coin but I do agree with you on the "gentle parenting" of the boy's mum which is at the core of it all

When you say Salvage friendships... which friendships do you mean?
Do you mean the friendships between the two of them?
Or are you worried about your own friendship with each of the?

You mention that you've known one mum for a long time... but the other one has the same day off as you.

The "holiday" is over. You can just go back to your own routine.
If one brings it up I'd say.. It was unfortunate that the kids just didn't get on, but they are only four and change the subject.

It sounds as if they are both on your case... and maybe you need to be a bit more assertive with them. I'm not sure why you are wringing your hands over whether the two of them get on...that's up to them and not your problem.

Stay out of it. It does sound like the children needed much more supervision than they got. Boy mom seems to be justifying his violence which is concerning.

Not your sink, not your washing up.

From what I can gather, you and boy mum are besties and she wants you to bash girl mum with her, but you think she's in the wrong and don't want to tell her that but also don't want to agree with her.

Just change the subject.