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To be oblivious to the issue people have with JKR? I thought she was a feminist. What have I missed?

381 replies

laughingnow · 15/06/2025 14:05

People have warned me not to state the view above as ‘it’s more complicated’

OP posts:
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9
MoistVonL · 16/06/2025 17:26

when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else

Aw, doesn’t that sound reasonable and an excellent idea, @Lostcat ! Let’s give them that then.

But wait, trans identifying people already have that! Calloo callay! Job done! Gender reassignment is already a protected characteristic under British law, so trans people gave the same safety, privacy and inclusion as everyone else.
Wonderful news!

Acceptance could be a bit of a problem. If by acceptance we mean “accept you, a transwoman, is a man who prefers to present or think himself as a woman despite being male” then we’re all good.

If you mean “accept this transwoman’s belief that he has actually changed sex (despite that being impossible) as factual” we are going to run into the brick wall of material reality. You know, that thing that exists whether you believe in it or not.

That could have a knock on effect of “inclusion” if you by that you mean “gets to have the stuff for women only despite not being female”. Because that’s not inclusion, that’s a land grab. Womanhood isn’t something males can colonise. Women do actually have rights too.

There are perfectly sensible trans identifying people who know they are not the opposite sex, who use their own same sex facilities and respect others’ boundaries. I know some of them in my real life. They would no more use the women’s changing room or join a women’s sport team than my gay son would. I wish their voices were heard more.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 17:13

This statement:

“And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.”

is actually a good example of the tactics that have been used to leverage a group of male people to get additional privileges that are often framed as being 'human rights'.

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls"

Demanding full access to female only single sex spaces can be very easily said to be demanding "full access to women and girls". This group is not demanding their own spaces for the needs listed. They are demanding to be treated exactly as if they are female people thereby having 'full access'.

"all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else "

This has a couple of issues. If that was all they were asking for, why haven't they been campaigning for separate provisions to suit their unique needs? They have not been though. They have been demanding full access to female single sex provisions.

Also, those very same aims safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion can be said to be the aims of other vulnerable groups of male people. And yet, 'human rights' which often gets quoted, do not include that groups of vulnerable male people have extra and specially provided for provisions. Because male people are judged to be safe enough with other male people in provisions. In the case of prisons, a separate space IS provided, as it should be..

"the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss"

Absolutely, all humans have this need. It is there right to have this.

No sub group of male people though have the right to access the opposite sex single provisions. In doing so, this actively voilates the human right for female people to have those same rights this poster is arguing for.

Female people have the same right to have "the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss" as those male people demanding to access their spaces.

However, some people believe that philosophical belief, because gender identity is only a person's philosophical belief about themselves, should be prioritised above the needs of female people based on female people's sex.

DialSquare · 16/06/2025 17:08

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

(Not to mention nonsensical)

Are you taking the piss?!!!!!

Verv · 16/06/2025 17:05

The emotive speech surrounding it is designed to manipulate, cajole, and guilt trip, and its not working anymore.

Ultimately the fury exists because because what trans identified males cannot have is their feelings and identity validated at the expense of women and girls.

As for dignity and privacy, the sheer volume of selfies in female facilities does rather put the kibosh on that particular plea.

Superhansrantowindsor · 16/06/2025 17:02

‘Safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion’
Safety - everyone deserves this. If they are not safe in the male toilet why would that be? Because of males. So deal with that. The answer is not to put males into female spaces.
Privacy- my local swimming pool does not have cubicles in the female changing room. I want privacy too. I don’t want any males to see me getting undressed. Why is my right to privacy not important?
Acceptance- why should I accept something that isn’t true? I don’t want to lie.
Inclusion- how exactly is a trans woman excluded from anything? They can play sports with their own sex class, go to the gym with their own sex etc.
My DH , like a lot of men , is absolutely lovely and no threat to anyone. But strangers don’t know that. That is why it would be inappropriate for him to be in a female space. Some women wouldn’t mind but even if just 1 out of hundred did feel uncomfortable that is enough to exclude him from that space.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 17:00

No male person can ever experience life as any type of woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman. The use of the adjective 'trans' in the term 'trans woman' is a false usage, why should any person have to comply with such a request to use such a term.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, those male people are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Yet, we are being told that a group of male people should be considered by society as being 'female' and to centre them by allowing them full access to female single sex provisions.

It is based on falsehoods, and language demands are designed to make this seem acceptable. But it is not.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 16:56

Reader's Note :

Broad safeguarding policy is indeed created using 'blanket' approaches to whole groups. Male people. And not only that but extreme transgender rights activists ARE seeking special treatment. They are demanding to have additional privileges that other people don't have.

The UK has provisions that mean that organisations and people can legitimately discriminate against a group of people based on a protected characteristic needing to be protected. ie Sex discrimination is separated into legitimate vs illegitimate discrimination.

Through the falsehood that somehow a male person with a belief that they are female, extreme activists sought to by pass the legitimate discrimination clauses that allowed female people to have single sex provisions (ie. spaces, opportunities including sport). Remember, being a 'female person' when you are a male person is only a belief, sincerely held or not. There is nothing about that belief that is based in material reality.

Illegitimate discrimination is still protected against in the EA as was mentioned in the judgement. This means that a transgender person should not be prevented from employment, housing, etc because they are transgender. The activist groups over reached and told organisations and individuals that this also included not being able to have single sex provisions if someone had or planned to get a legal certificate that was a legal fiction about their sex.

Some people think any discrimination is bad. But it is the very basis of safeguarding principles that are used to protect people in the UK. It can be argued that it is, in fact, discriminatory that one group of male people get special treatment in getting access to female sex based provisions. This is where it needs to be recognised that there has been additional privileges created for this group.

For instance, the human right for accessing a safe toilet should be based on 'what society views as reasonable'. Society understands that absolutely no spaces are 100% safe.

This is another fallacious argument that we see. The tactic goes 'because you cannot be 100% safe if this law is enacted, why bother? Bad people will still do bad things.' It is just bonkers when you start to unpick that, and again, what law is ever expected to deliver 100% safety? None. But still we see it rolled out.

So, the human right is that everyone should have access to a safe toilet.
And society has to balance out how to do this. They can only get the safety up to a reasonable level. This might shock some people. But it is considered acceptable risk that people of the same sex as the sex that the space is for, use that space.

No male person has a human right to expect privacy and dignity from other male people in a single sex space for instance. The category that is considered for those human rights decisions, is the sex category, is that they are male.

This is based on male strength and power, unique male needs, and male patterns of criminality.

Conversely, it is considered reasonable effort to put female people in with other female people. We shouldn't expect privacy from other female people in those spaces and there is considered acceptable risk that an average female person will be able to defend themselves from and / or run away from other female people.

When people start to claim that it is a human rights issue, they don't seem to understand the basis of the human rights they are claiming. And they are attempting to leverage a sub group of male people into the female sex based category. Because to them, personally and probably ideologically, it is 'kind' and 'respectful'.

Remember, those male people are only female based on their 'belief' which they believe is how a female person feels. Evidence shows that hormones and surgery do not change male patterns of criminality. A male person who has lost their penis due to disease or injury is just as male as one who has opted to have their penis removed due to their belief.

It seems to be all based on this misinformation that somehow this group should be given additional privileges above everyone else because of their belief?
And what other belief in UK society gets this special treatment- to bypass their body's category to get access to provisions that they should not be accessing when the category is vital for the needs within that category? Age? Disability? Is there any?

Therefore, a group of male people want to have:
Access to their single sex space
Access to unisex spaces
Access to the opposite sex space.

So, not only access to their single sex spaces, which we know other male people with transgender identities use without issues, but they get additional privileges of access to female single sex spaces and also they can use mixed sex 'gender neutral' spaces as well.

This means this expectation to use female single sex spaces is a privilege that requires female people to accept higher risk than male people. Because, remember there is no evidence that these male people, at any stage of transition, have any lower risk of committing male pattern crime than any other male in the UK.

Why should any group of male prisoners have access to the female prison estate? No other vulnerable male prisoners get that privilege. They are housed in the vulnerable male section at a male prison.

And why should any male person be given a role that should be for female people to progress female people (ie a woman's officer in the university's student union) when that male person has no fucking idea what it actually means to be a female person at that university. Just labelling themselves as a female student is not actually being a female student.

This is why we see the discussions repeating the extreme activist soundbites because those soundbites appeal to people's wish to be kind, to be righteous and to their lack of understanding about what makes a person transgender.

Why do this group of male people get additional privileges that no one else gets?

Verv · 16/06/2025 16:54

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

They can have safety inclusion privacy acceptance and pissing dignity in facilities designated for their sex class.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/06/2025 16:51

Transwomen already have 'safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss)'.

They do not need access to female spaces in addition to that.

PractisingMyTelekenipsis · 16/06/2025 16:49

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

What is that makes a transwoman a transwoman if not the feeling that they are a woman? Aka "lady feels?" Genuinely asking here.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 16:47

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

“And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.”

How have they not been seeking full access to women and girls when they are demanding full access to all single sex provisions ?

Please explain. Either they have not been seeking full access to female single sex provisions, or they have.

Why they have been or are seeking access to all female single sex provisions is irrelevant. So are they or are they not?

And if they are not seeking full access to female single sex provisions, which ones are they not seeking access to?

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2025 16:46

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss)

They can do that in their own sex spaces, or, if that is not good enough, they can campaign for third spaces.

Ansolurely no need for men to infringe on women's rights at all.

Remember - Women get rights too.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 16:43

Is it basic human decency to allow any male people )over about 8 years old) to access female single sex spaces?

Is it basic human decency to prioritise a male person’s philosophical belief (however someone labels that) over the needs of any female person?

I think when throwing around accusations of who has basic human decency, these questions need to be considered.

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:43

WallaceinAnderland · 16/06/2025 16:12

What is transphobic about that statement. Is it the word males? Transwomen are male. They have to be, that is literally the only qualification needed to be a transwoman.

Is it the word ladyfeelings? What's wrong with that. The whole premise of males identifying as females, is that they 'feel' like a woman.

Is it the access to woman and girls that you claim is transphobic?

Of course I don't need to explain why it's transphobic. But here goes nothing.

It is utterly demeaning (not to mention nonsensical) to characterise trans women as "males and their ladyfeelings".

And to suggest that trans people are seeking to establish "full access to women and girls" when all they are asking for is safety, privacy, acceptance and inclusion like anyone else (e.g. the ability to go out in public and have a safe, private and dignified place to piss) is profoundly prejudiced and false.

And, indeed, none of this is compatible with basic decency.

HTH.

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 16:40

WallaceinAnderland · 16/06/2025 16:21

The truth is ragingly transphobic.

I think that this is what we are seeing expressed on this thread.

That JKR is a bully because she doesn’t respond with kindness to male people abusing her. It makes people uncomfortable because they want her to either ignore the abuse, or to accept it. Or maybe, they take on other people’s opinions that she is a bully and just repeat it without checking what the context is.

We also seem to be seeing the usual discomfort with blunt language being expressed. That anything someone says has to be wrapped in acceptable language otherwise it will be dismissed as being problematic. Either mean, unkind, hate or whatever excuse is used.

It is remarkable really. That when specific examples are requested, none are forthcoming. It is like the essay she published. Some people just repeated the criticism of her without even bothering to read it and think about what she said.

But to be honest, I am finding the accusations of bullying people without examples given quite concerning. Because I don’t think people realised that they are supporting the abuse of her when they categorise her responses to specific male people as ‘bullying’.

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2025 16:40

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:38

Raging transphobia only appears true to those who are ragingly transphobic.

Edited

We're all totally over being called transphobic for recognising sex exists.

Find a new insult 🙄

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:38

Verv · 16/06/2025 16:20

Its also ragingly true.

Raging transphobia only appears true to those who are ragingly transphobic.

TheKeatingFive · 16/06/2025 16:37

At the end of the day @Lostcat women have rights too.

The right to sex specific spaces and services being one of them.

Men do not get to just override that because of a sense of entitlement.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/06/2025 16:35

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 15:54

giving males and their ladyfeelings full access to women and girls

Yup. It is exactly this type of raging transphobia- specifically trans misogyny- that is incompatible with basic human decency. Perfect example of it right here. It is what it is , and it’s here in black and white for all to see.

Edited

What is incompatible with basic human decency is your apparent belief that people born with vaginas don't have the right to say no to people born with penises.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/06/2025 16:33

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:08

It is ragingly transphobic to characterise support for equality for trans people thus:

giving males and their ladyfeelings full access to women and girls

I note of course that in your attempt to make this appear to be a reasonable statement you thought to leave out the 'ladyfeelings' bit.

Edited

In fairness, their ladyfeelings aren't relevant.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 16/06/2025 16:32

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 15:59

Nice try. This statement is ragingly transphobic:

giving males and their ladyfeelings full access to women and girls

Whether it is transphobic or not is a matter of opinion.

Whether it is true or not isn't.

Verv · 16/06/2025 16:29

@greencartbluecart That is the most compelliing argument against using the phrase. I shouldve put quote marks around it.

greencartbluecart · 16/06/2025 16:23

Ah - someone objects to the phrase ladyfeeling

and indeed so do I because a man can’t have an idea about what it feels like to be a lady

although they know is what they feel is what they think it must feel like to be a lady

but I guess saying “men with deeply felt yet irrational or illogical thought patterns “ won’t be better

Helleofabore · 16/06/2025 16:23

Lostcat · 16/06/2025 16:08

It is ragingly transphobic to characterise support for equality for trans people thus:

giving males and their ladyfeelings full access to women and girls

I note of course that in your attempt to make this appear to be a reasonable statement you thought to leave out the 'ladyfeelings' bit.

Edited

So, you cannot answer the actual question then. All you can do is double down on the emotional manipulation that we too often see.

Here, I will repost the question;

What part of allowing a group of male people to access female single sex provisions is not giving male people full access to women and girls?

Can you articulate the false information in the statement you have highlighted?

Please note, I have asked for the ‘false’ information. Not the information you deem to be poorly worded. The information that is ‘false’.

WallaceinAnderland · 16/06/2025 16:21

The truth is ragingly transphobic.

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