To be oblivious to the issue people have with JKR? I thought she was a feminist. What have I missed?

You want this to be discussed all over again, hence the bump?

Indeed.

I find that all too often requests for evidence to support positions are ignored. Even when the poster has claimed on the thread or in the past that they either work in the field or have qualifications in the field.

Generally what happens is as we have seen on this thread. We are told it is transphobic to even have these discussions. Blunt language is reported in an attempt to have it deleted or is called out in an attempt to discredit. Yet, the poster who seeks to discredit the blunt statement fails to explain what is in error in the statement. They merely resort to accusations of transphobia and hate. And sometimes even ignorance.

I find those who are allies and quickest to make accusations of transphobia are also those who in effect post explanations that gatekeep who is and isn't transgender. Which is transphobic in itself and hateful to the people with transgender identities that they exclude or declare are not trans.

It happens enough for the pattern to be recognisable once you see it. And still no evidence linked. Because we know that there is none that supports their arguments and they know we know.

Yes, I should amend my statement to say that emotion AND the logic to back it up vs just emotion

True, but even then, you'd have to have an emotional investment in trans people that you wouldn't have in women.

Why would that be? Why do invested in one side and not the other?

Not so much an argument as a chess game between Stephen Hawking and a pigeon.

I guess this is why I just can’t understand it.

It seems to me largely that it’s logic vs emotion. I think this is why the debate breaks down over and over again because only one side is arguing with logic. So it ends up being an argument.

The only way the TRA position makes any sense is if ...

You genuinely believe that humans can change sex. Though, to be fair, I'm not sure if anyone genuinely takes this position any more.

You don't believe that women's rights are very important - or at least that they are less important than 'trans rights'.

You fundamentally don't understand the basics of safeguarding and/or you think being able to 'identify' as what you like is a higher order need, therefore safeguarding can be overridden when these are in conflict. This might just be a variation on the previous point.

Or perhaps more likely, you haven't given it the slightest degree of thought. When you do, you're in deep denial that you or your side could ever be wrong about anything and you're coping with the cognitive dissonance by yelling 'right wing' at anyone how disagrees with you.

I keep searching for logical arguments and/or debates online from TRAs but I haven’t been able to find one. I do try learn both sides before trying to understand my own position- the best interviews I have seen are with what I would call genuine or ‘old school’ Transwomen who sit there saying they know they aren’t women and they don’t agree with the social contagion of people claiming to be when they’re not.

Someone else will have replied, but you are wrong. No one around Khelif believed he was a woman. They put him in the ring so he could get a gold medal for his country. There is no way his support team would have carried him around on their shoulders and banged him on the chest if they actually believed he was female.

Khelif is Algerian. This is the same country which ostracized and threatened an actual woman - Hassiba Boulmerka - for running around an athletics track in shorts and winning multiple medals for her country.

On the other hand @laughingnow the hatred that is directed at JK Rowling that has now been targeted at a bunny charity has produced the charity many new donators and this song.

it is a shame someone reported them to the charity commission but the commission quickly told them they were not taking any further action. They were reported for following transphobic accounts (they have a policy to follow those who follow them) and for transphobia (there has been none).

x.com/carrotcottagerr/status/1934696044379390171?s=46

That's what fundamentalism does wherever it spreads.

This

perfectly said

The former says, "I am a woman".

Whats the difference between a "trans identified" male and a "cis" male?

By the way lostcat, haven’t you spent threads telling us that only certain people are really transgender within the group who say they have transgender identities?

If I remember correctly you, personally, support gatekeeping who is and isn’t trans. It is really hypocritical to be calling other posters transphobic, when the group you are heavily invested in supporting would call you transphobic.

Readers note:

“Yes well there are fucked up individuals all over the world of all types. Some trans people are criminals, some cis people are criminals, it says nothing about this category of person as a whole group.”

This is another small sign of progress.

Indeed there are male people with transgender identities who are raping female people. I am happy to post the evidence if anyone would like to see it.

Because there is no evidence that at any stage in transition a male person has a reduced risk profile of committing either a sex offence or a violent crime, all male people need to be treated equally in laws designed to safeguard female people. Hence, no group of male people should be exempt from safeguarding measures.

To demand that that are exempt is one of those additional privileges I mentioned upthread.

Readers note:

Here is the plea for ‘respect’. But it is an asymmetrical plea. It is all one sided towards a group of male people who have a philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect material reality.

There is no respect for female people given. As you have seen from recent posts.

Women and girls must engage imagination so that they might understand a world where male people are female people.

Women and girls must not campaign for their protections unless they are directly impacted because it is morally wrong if they have ‘virtually no’ impact.

Women and girls must stop having opinions about the negative impacts on them.

Women and girls must stop discussing the negative impacts on them.

Women and girls must give respect when there is no respect given in return.

And readers, it is only true to say some people with transgender identities are not harassing women. I, personally, have been harassed by a male people with transgender identities.

This poster makes blanket statements that they simply cannot support even by logic.

There are male people with transgender identities harassing women. They do it in person and all over the internet. It is a ridiculous statement to make that none of them are.

However, the falsity then is used to support the dishonest accusation of transphobia.

Of course they are asking to be left alone. Thru used to be left alone. Then the TRA lobby came along and empowered AGP men to try to access women’s single sex spaces and women quite rightly said ‘hell no!!!’ The quiet, dignified trans women have quite rightly had their access to women’s spaces and right to any consideration revoked permanently as a result because how can we tell if they are ‘good’ transwomen or a raging AGP pervert? The TRA are ironically the enemy of the trans people.

The march is Lesbian Pride.

The people protesting it are saying very openly that lesbians should not be allowed their own stuff. Unless they include men.

That doesn't even give you a moment's pause? Really?

And there it is readers:

Stop having opinions about trans people.

Stop talking about trans people.

Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.

or in other words

Stop having opinions about trans people. = stop having opinions about where the demands made by some^^ trans people conflict with the needs of female people.

Stop talking about trans people = stop having discussions about where the demands made by some^^ trans people conflict with the needs of female people.

This is a good one :

“Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.” says the person who is trying to force women to accept that the words they need for themselves as unique from male people, have to include male people.

This one is high on rank hypocrisy.

^^ There are many people with transgender identities who agree with the Supreme Court ruling and who focus their activism on fighting illegitimate discrimination.

@Lostcat - as a thought experiment (and seeing as I asked you earlier where you draw the line but you didn’t respond)

Let’s say you have an 11 year old daughter. Let’s say you and your daughter are out somewhere, you’re in a queue waiting to buy something and she needs the toilet so you stay in the queue and she goes off to find the women’s. Then let’s say that you see a 6ft 2in male in a dress follow her in to the toilets. Would you bat an eyelid? Would you go in after her to make sure she is ok? Would you say to yourself “this is absolutely fine, she is just ‘going about her business’”?

Then let’s say you take your 11 year old daughter swimming. You are changing after a long swim in a communal changing room. You see a fully intact transwoman in the changing rooms, completely naked and looking over at your daughter. Do alarm bells start ringing or do you simply tell yourself that “she is just going about her business”

How much are you willing to sacrifice at the altar of trans? And do you think you have a right to tell others how much they should sacrifice?

Not ALL Transwomen are like this. But we won’t know which ones are until it’s too late.

Even that doesn't work. We have no way of knowing whether a man has had his penis removed or not before he enters women's toilets.

Trans people aren't harassing women... So what is Lily Toncito doing taking photos of girls and women in the women's toilets and posting them on tiktok?

Do you think gatekeeping women's toilets to transsexual men who have undergone surgery and generally pass as women the best fudge that we used to do? Because I think that worked.

I don't take offence at men in general dressing as women as a part time or full time hobby. It's something men have been doing for a long time for a myriad of reasons.

But I do take offence at cross dressing men thinking it's ok to use women's and girls' single sex spaces.

There's a big difference there! You can be pissed that someone crosses a boundary without hating their existence.

“It's of virtually no cost to you whatsoever to accept and accommodate trans people. All you have to do is address them as they asked to be addressed as you do for everyone else, and then otherwise leave them alone.”

“It would have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever, if any, if you simply woke up tomorrow and decided never to talk or worry about trans people ever again.”

And I see that lostcat here is again failing to understand feminism and women’s rights. Some people will fight for having the needs of female people prioritised even IF they are one of the rare people who have never needed the rights that are supposed to ensure those needs are met.

Using this logic of lostcat’s, the only women who should fight for specific protections are those directly impacted. What a fucking burden to put on women and girls ! So many posters adding to the burden of women and girls with their censuring.

So, using this logic traumatised female people are the only ones who should be fighting to make sure female rape crisis support is female only, and that female people receive a female health professional to do their medical procedures.

Female prisoners are apparently the only people who should support female single sex prisons. And yet, when that happened a woman was fucking denied parole for two years after she was eligible because she had to face a complaint made in retaliation against her. But sure. Only those directly impacted should discuss this.

Only female sports people should speak up too. Oh hang on…. When they do they risk being dropped from the team, suspended as we have seen, or dropped by their sponsors or socially ‘cancelled’.

But apparently, there is ‘virtually’ no impact on our lives.